Love Us or Hate Us
A funny thing happened in recent days here at NewSpring. You may have heard about the service we recently did on Hell. Well, I’ve heard that service has caused a stir in blogland. I guess some bloggers that are always trying to fix us and other churches like NewSpring came down hard on us for that service.
The reason I know this is that a local pastor caught wind of the controversy. Someone attending the church indicated that the pastor showed short clips of that service to his church and essentially used it as an opportunity to attack our ministry. I’m sure this isn’t the first or last time it will happen. We had other churches attacking us from the pulpit in Granger as well. This isn’t a new phenomenon.
The reason I found out about this particular instance, though, is because someone who used to attend that church was curious about our ministry after hearing his pastor rail against us. He found our website and watched that service in its entirety. What he found, of course, was that Perry taught a very clear, biblical message that had a huge impact on the folks that heard it. And, now, that guy is attending NewSpring.
You want to know a little secret. We love controversy at NewSpring. Frankly, it’s our hope that lots of people love what we do. And, it’s our hope that at least a few people hate what we do. If we don’t experience those extreme reactions, then we’re probably not truly fulfilling God’s mission for our church. Don’t forget. God despises "lukewarm." We are a church for those who are unchurched or given up on church. If we are fully aligned with God’s mission for our ministry, we are going to offend people who love the institution or their version of "the truth" more than than they love the people the Truth was intended to reach.
So, love us or hate us, we love you.
Tony – man keep doing what you guys are doing. It’s churches like you all who are setting the stage for a new way to do things and help usher in more people to the Kingdom. I am so glad you guys are clinging to God’s eternal hope and I don’t even attend New Spring.
Keep doing what you are doing.
if people aren’t complaining and attacking you, it just means you have no influence and are unnoticed.
keep up the good work.
well said tony!
First service I had ever watched of NewSpring was the Hell sermon and it was one of the best services I have been to. You guys are amazing. Keep making a church an amazing experience.
So true…so true.
Good stuff!
That link makes it look like you were attacked from the pulpit of GCC.
???
I totally agree with you on this one. Jesus was also attacked for making the religous establishment uncomfortable. That guy managed to change a “couple” of lives in the process. Keep what you are doing, lives are changing down there…
Jeff, that’s funny. No, Granger has attacked NewSpring…at least I don’t think so. :-)
tony
Forgive me for being one of those discernment bloggers, but yeah, it does read funny …
Should probably say something like: “When I was at Granger, We had other churches attacking us from the pulpit as well.”
As it reads now, had to read it a couple times thinking you were saying Granger attacked your current church, which just seemed odd!
Eh … take it or leave it, but it is funny to read.
I don’t know about other churches, but I have enough to do with my own people that I don’t have time to attack other ministries.
Some folks need to find some sort of a life.
kgp
the “lukewarm” reference stirred me more. i’m born to stir the coals, ask the “dumb questions” and start fires. i need to keep that drive alive in my position in the local church. thanks for taking the time to share what’s going on. john
Well said! Amen!!!
I think every church serious about reaching people far from God needs to understand the dynamic you are talking about.
I am thankful for what you are doing!
I was so curious about this post that I actually downloaded the mp3 of Perry’s sermon. I absolutely loved it! We need more of this gut-level truth being heard throughout the body of Christ. Thanks for sharing and God bless you guys for what you’re doing.
Emanna
Our job as Christians is to stay true to the Word of God and be an example to a dying world. Not to associate ourselves with the world and try and find common ground with it. The Bible is enough, it is so arrogant to think it isn’t and we need worldly tricks and “rock” presentations to somehow entertain people to Christ. Jesus met with prostitutes and tax collectors but he NEVER behaved like one. He set an example by his holiness, he did not try and figure out what clothes to wear, what songs to sing, what lingo to speak to reach the sinful people. He was Holy so that the people could see how sinful they were and only then realize that they needed a savior.
Joe, obviously, I disagree with your interpretation of our ministry approach. My guess is neither one of us is going to convince the other to think otherwise, so I’m not going to try. I’ve witnessed the salvations and the transformed lives. You’d probably argue those are illegitimate. I’m not going to waste your time or mine chasing that rabbit.
I am curious, however, just to get your perspective on something. What do you do with someone like Paul? How do you interpret passages like I Corinthians 9? I’m not trying to pin you in a corner. I’m genuinely curious to know your thoughts, because it appears to me that Paul interacted in different ways to present the Gospel to different people. Why do you think Paul did that? That passage, among others, has always intrigued me.
tony
Tony,
What do I do with someone like Paul? Listen to every word he says!
As far as the passages in I Corinthians 9 I think that is best expounded on by this great excerpt:
“The first sentence(1Cor:19:9) in that brief excerpt shows clearly what Paul was talking about. He was describing not his willingness to sacrifice the message, but his willingness to sacrifice himself to preach the message. He would give up everything – even become ‘a slave to all’ – if that would promote the spread of the unadulterated gospel. His desire to win souls is the heart of this text, and he repeats it several times: ‘that I might win the more’; ‘that I might win the Jews’; ‘that I might win those who are under the Law’; ‘that I might win those who are without the law’; ‘that I might win the weak’; and ‘that I may by all means save some.’ SO winning people to Christ was his one objective. In order to do that, Paul was willing to give up all his rights and privileges, his position, his rank, his livilihood, his freedom – ultimately even his life. If it would further the spread of the gospel, Paul would claim no rights, make no demands, insist on no privileges.
And that is precisely how Paul lived and ministered. Not that he would modify the message to suit the world, but that he would behave so that he personally would never be an obstacle to anyone’s hearing and understanding the message of Christ. He was describing an attitude of personal sacrifice, not compromise. He would never alter the clear and confrontive call to repentance and faith.
Paul was not suggesting that the gospel can be made more powerful by adapting it to a certain cultural context. He was not speaking about accomodating the message. He was simply saying he would not jeopardize his ability to preach the message by unnecessarily offending people. If the message was an offense, so be it”
-John MacArthur
So in my opinion, using AC/DC is like Paul using an idol of the pagan god Dagan to get the people’s attention and to entertain them becuase it is something they know and are familar with. It seems reprehensible to think of the message being taught that way but that is what many Christians beleive is what is happening in a lot of churches today and probably why you might have to “chase the rabbit” so much with people like me.
Thanks for your reply,
Joe
Joe,
We actually have a lot of common ground here, which may scare you more than it scares me. But, now, you and I might have to get John MacArthur involved in the conversation because Paul actually did what MacArthur said he wasn’t supposed to do.
In Acts 17. Paul “stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: ‘Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.’”
In this instance, it sure does appear that Paul is modeling how we might take something from the culture (an altar to an unknown god) to share the Gospel. Of course, I also think Jesus, himself, modeled this for us in how he used parables to teach Truth to various audiences.
That aside, Joe, I really appreciate your passion. And, this may be hard for you to understand, but I also share your desire for God’s Word to be preached boldly and without compromise. I trust, like Paul, that you and I also want to see more people won to Christ. With that, we’d really appreciate your prayers for our ministry. Thanks.
tony
So Paul stands up…points out their idolatry and then tells them about the True and Living God…so how is that making the message more relevant?
I agree, by the way…if you want to go and preach on a street and point out peoples false gods…the ones that allow them to get drunk, fornicate, and do all sorts of things…let’s get out there!
But if you are trying to make an excuse to bring the world into the church and using the scriptures to do it? C’mon, be honest with yourself…not only isn’t church an evangelistic tool…but changing the message to make it anything other than what it is, is dishonesty…
Bob,
Actually, Paul instructed us that we should have that same sensitivity to unbelievers in church gatherings as well. Check out I Corinthians 14. At one point he challenges us: “If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?”
Doesn’t it stink? You and I share this same desire to have knowledge and wisdom and understanding. We’re both reading the same Bible, and yet we come to two opposite conclusions. As another example, I read through Acts and see gatherings of the church where thousands of people accepted Christ. As I read the Bible, I’m convinced the church is the greatest evangelistic tool. By the way, Bob, I don’t think you’re trying to be dishonest. I just think the two of us disagree.
Beyond that, though, I’ve witnessed it with my own eyes. I’ve seen people who are far from God–broken, hurting, confused–receive Christ in a church gathering. It happens by the hundreds in some churches. Through those encounters with Jesus, lives are being transformed. Marriages are healed. People are finding victory over addictions. Folks are gaining purpose and hope. I heard a story yesterday of a woman who received Christ and God has removed the anger in her life. She’s experiencing peace for the first time. Amazing!
Now, I guess we could choose to disparage the work God is doing in people’s lives. We could be angry that God has chosen to heal people on Sunday in a worship gathering. It wouldn’t be the first time that religious people tried to attack how God touches people’s lives. In doing so, however, we may just be attacking a move of God.
Let me conclude with this encouragement for you. We know and serve a big God. He’s very powerful. He’s sovereign. If we’re creating barriers for people to receive Christ, will you pray that God will help us remove those? And, if, by some miracle of God, we happen to be doing something that helps people hear and respond to the Gospel message, will you pray that God blesses that? I really think he’ll honor that prayer. Remember in Acts it says, “For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Thanks for engaging the conversation. It encourages me that you would be so interested in seeing God complete a great work in our ministry.
tony
1 Corinthians 14:1-25, Paul is giving specific instructions about the gifts of tongues and prophecy. It is quite the stretch to apply this teaching to making unbelievers “comfortable” when they come to church. Just as it is poor exegesis for your pastor to use Revelation 3:20 as a call to salvation. Again, context, you can not pluck verses out of context and then use them incorrectly. In Rev 3, the text is talking about Jesus and the rebuking of the church at Laodicea. Jesus is knocking at the door of the church not at the door of the unbelievers hearts as your pastor tried to say when he had the large door on the stage.
I have another question for you. You say that you had 800 salvations at the church during your latest series. Correct? But yet, even your pastor shares a story about thinking he was saved at one time in his life but then realized that he wasnt. Do you think that this may be remotely possible with any of the 800 “proclaimed” professions?
And lastly how do you reconcile your statement:
” We are a church for those who are unchurched or given up on church”
With this statement made by Perry just recently on his blog?
“But since being at NewSpring for over seven years now I am beginning to discover the immaturity in saying that we are a church for only a certain demographic of people”
and:
“Here at NewSpring we don’t have a “target group.”
Are you and Perry on the same page with this? Just curious.
Although, i find your church’s methods to be suspect, what bothers me the most is your constant mishandling of the scriptures. The Bible is not play-dough that you can mold and shape to suit whatever you want it to say.
“I’ve seen people who are far from God–broken, hurting, confused–receive Christ in a church gathering. It happens by the hundreds in some churches. Through those encounters with Jesus, lives are being transformed. Marriages are healed. People are finding victory over addictions. Folks are gaining purpose and hope.”
But you use them darn electric “gee-tars” and amplifiers. Therefore it’s all invalidated.
If we’re really on the same team, why do we feel the need to tear each other down all the time? Tony, your Acts 5 verse says it all.
This drives me crazy. I don’t have all the fancy words and phrases. I’m not sure that I ever will. This is all I can say:
Through your ministry lives have been changed. Generation after generation will be in the Kingdom because of NewSpring’s passion for Christ. Future leaders will rise – passionate people who literally would charge Hell with a water pistol. For anyone to argue against that…well…???
I don’t attend NewSpring so I’m not playing favorites. I just can’t help but get fired up when it’s SOOOO obvious that God is at work.
Keep on, Tony. You guys are always in my prayers. As always, thank you for doing what you do.
“I’m convinced the church is the greatest evangelistic tool”
I would just add to that statement…
the unity of the church is the greatest evanglistic tool…
see: john 13:35; john 17:20-26; romans 15:4-6; ephesians 4:1-3…
After reading 1 Cor. 14 I would agree that Paul is asking the church to watch what and how they speak in tongues and prophesy so that an unbeliever may hear the truth of God and be convicted. Otherwise he would just say they are out of their minds.
Also in Rev. 3 Jesus is talking to unbelievers. It says there are those who say they have aquired lots of stuff and don’t need anything. I said the same things when I wasn’t a christian, I don’t need anything. Though, Jesus says but you do need something. You are blind if you don’t think you do. Here I am standing right in front of you. Repent! He is speaking to unbelievers. With that said I do not think it is constructive to question confessions or to call out a relationship between Mr. Morgan and his senior pastor. We can have a good mutually encouraging discussion with out that as Tony has done in each of his responses. Please let us be civil and discuss with love and mutual respect.
Tony,
I don’t believe that Paul contradicted what I mentioned in my other post in Acts 17. If you look at verse 16- he was GREATLY distressed by these idols- he hated them.
What he was doing was saying that all men are designed to be religious and we all desire to worship something, wether it be God or something else. He was not using the idol to excite the people or find a common cultural ground with them.
In Acts 22:16-17 “1While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.”
It is our duty as Christians to REASON with others as Paul did. That is why you are getting so much email from Christians who are on guard against the new wave of church that tries hard to make the un-regenerated soul comfortable rather than ashamed of their sin.
But Tony, I appreciate your kind words and I am praying for your ministry.
Joe
Actually, I don’t believe it’s a stretch at all, Sam. Paul is not discussing the rightness or wrongness of the practice (in this instance, tongues). He’s saying that attention should be paid to what practices we choose to employ, based on presence of unbelievers in our midst.
I conclude from this that there are some practices that are perfectly fine for believers but that may hinder an unbeliever’s understanding of what’s going on, so we are to be discerning as to which practices we use.
What I don’t understand is why Christians would have a problem with ANYONE coming to Christ at ANY point in their lives. We should quit arguing for the sake of argument and looking for ways to attack each other. God and all of heaven is rejoicing over each and every person who accepted Christ through this ministry – why can’t the Christians do this as well?
Tony, great job, both in your ministry and in how you’re handling tough criticisms in a very civil fashion.
The passage you quoted I think is a great example of the difference between being culturally relevant (a good thing) and accommodating the message (a bad thing):
In Acts 17. Paul “stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: ‘Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.’”
Paul does the following:
- Recognizes the men are religious and not just heathen destined for hell
- He studied their culture (he walked around and *looked* at their objects of worship)
- He found a point of connection (made reference to that object of worship)
- Built a bridge from where they were at to learning about Christ. Even being present in the Areopagus was part of the bridge building process.
- Never compromised the message, never said their gods could lead to salvation, never went against Christ being the only way.
- By doing so, no doubt led to many hearing the good news in a way they could understand and trusting in Christ.
In any case, keep on being culturally relevant and biblically pure!
Tiffany,
I take insult with your insinuation that we are upset at people coming to Christ, and if you would carefully read the posts before, that is not in any way what we are saying.
What we take offense to is the current wave of thinking in churches that it is alright to bring an unbeliever in the church by any means necessary, (such as paying that demonic AC/DC or showing rated R movies) certainly Paul would have taken serious offense with this as well.
We are to be lights, to shine among the darkness – to rebuke those sins in the shadows, how in the world can we do that if we are in the shadows as well??
What is most troubling is that modern churches have gotten on this bandwagon that somehow the Bible is not enough to draw or keep people in church, that somehow we have to make the gospel more appealing?!
Besides, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to draw an unbeliever to the Lord, certainly not AC/DC.
Sam,
I don’t think I’ve insinuated in any of my comments that our goal as a ministry is to make unbelievers (or believers for that matter) comfortable. If you knew Perry like I do, you would know why I’m smiling at that statement.
In fact, there are many times when we are using songs, video, quotes, etc. from the culture to create tension. That was certainly the case with the “Hell” service that was the impetus for this dialogue. I can assure you no one participating in those services felt comfortable.
The purpose of those artistic elements was to create tension so that folks could grasp the distinct difference between a life without Jesus and salvation through him.
I would also agree with you, that only God really knows who is in authentic relationship with him. As a pastor, I don’t decide who is in or out of Heaven. It’s quite possible that some of those 800 people may not be Christ-followers. I pray that’s not the case. I think the tension you’re facing is the reality that some of those people may really have received Christ. If it helps you, though, there are lots of times that I can’t believe what God does in people’s lives. Sometimes the move of God just can’t be explained.
tony
You guys are doing a great job! Keep it up Tony. They crucified Christ for ministering “outside the box,” so you’re in good company.
This is why I always hated church. As a member of NewSpring I believe that what Tony and our pastor say is relevant to today’s society. Read Scripture and you will see instances were people gave their lives to Christ in the most unconvential ways. I am proud to serve GOD at NewSpring. Bringing people to Christ is more important arguing about the methods of one church. Whether you agree or disagree with OUR CHURCH. Let it go, NewSpring isnt going anywhere until Jesus comes back and I am proud of all those lives that this ministry has brought to JESUS. JESUS is more important than anything in my life. I got this from what I have learned from this church. The angels are rejoicing now in Heaven.
Lets remember our history for a minute and discuss Charles Finney who began many of the practices we see in the evangelical church today. Finney claimed large numbers of converts as well but late in his life he began to see how many of those were actually false converts. And in fact one of the main areas in which Finney held his “revivials” picked up the name “burned over district”.
Hoo-wee! Nothing like a good Church ‘discussion’ on a Friday!!
As a recovering legalist, I’d like to commend Tony on the amazing way he’s been handling himself through these discussions.
I’d also like to recommend we all read ‘Mad Church Disease’(shameless plug for Anne’s book! :) And no, don’t get your knickers in a knot–keep reading the Bible, too!
Have a great weekend everyone! Let’s love Jesus, the Church, and the lost.
Paul instructed us that one of the great roles the church should play is to reveal the manifold wisdom of God. We do this primarily through the gospel. There is no better tool for the Gospel than the church. I say AMEN to you guys out there. Keep up the good work.
I can’t stand not saying anything anymore! Tony, you and your church are involved in an amazing work of God! It kills me hearing all of these people talk about how it is wrong to use culture (words, dress, etc) to communicate the Gospel! Let me ask you, if you were to go to China to evangelize would you learn Chinese? Would you dress like the Chinese? Would you learn their music and literature? Well, if you wanted people to be saved you would! Nobody would stand on a street corner in China and preach the Gospel in a language no one understood! You would learn their lingo and their ways. Only then could you CLEARLY communicate the most important message of all… the GOSPEL.
Newspring church is a missionary. A missionary to a world that speaks in two main languages “music” and “technology.” The AC/DC version of Hells Bells was one of the most awesome things I have ever heard. When I heard it I thought of a lost young man sitting in the service, singing the song to himself and finally realizing the hopelessness of the song and turning his life to Christ. Over 800 people did that very thing. 800 people who wouldn’t be caught dead in a lot of churches. Sure, some of the salvations weren’t real… Some will not follow through. But that even happened to Paul in his ministry.
Way to go guys! Way to take a dark portion of our culture and conquer it for Christ! Way to give one of the clearest most concise presentations of the Gospel I have ever seen. You guys are such an encouragement to me and hundreds of other church planters out there, hungry for a fresh move of God over our land… Hungry to see the church quit shunning the people Jesus died for… Hungry to see the church become like Jesus… A FRIEND OF SINNERS!!!!
Tony, I have been reading your blog for a while now and have learned a great deal from it, but I think I have learned the most from you during this discussion. Your patience and compassion for those that disagree (and even attack) the ministry of NewSpring is amazing. Thanks for being an example.
Those of us that are running with you, stretching the envelope to reach more and more people for Christ, can learn a lesson from your grace, patience, compassion and love for those here that disagree with our methods.
I just wanted to say thanks.
“If we’re creating barriers for people to receive Christ, will you pray that God will help us remove those? And, if, by some miracle of God, we happen to be doing something that helps people hear and respond to the Gospel message, will you pray that God blesses that?”
You’re really good at this ;)
I think the Christmas story has a lot to say about cultural relevancy. Remember what God used to tell the wise men (from a a different culture) about the birth of Jesus?
A star, as in ASTROLOGY. He didn’t send them a copy of scripture. God used something from their culture, something they could related to, to lead them to Jesus.
Of course I’m not advocating astrology. I’m advocating cultural relavence without the the compromising the gospel.
I believe culture is like a cup and the gospel is acid. It will take the shape of the cup, it will even burn the cup but it will find fit the cup without changing it’s essence.
My intention was (and still is) never to intentionally insult anyone through this dialogue. However, I strongly disagree with the “us vs. them” mentality that I see so often through many Christian blogs and websites. Some people have become so focused on methodology and the right vs. wrong way to present the gospel that I fear the point to sharing the gospel has been lost to some. To keep things simple, I wholeheartedly agree with Randy’s post. Well said, man!
Tony, rumor had it that Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, was an alcoholic who rolled a tad too deep with hookers, pimps, and crooks. My source? Overly religious folks with a critical spirit.
You’re in good company. Stay strong in His might.
My question is why can’t the church be the agent of change within the culture? We used to be. The message was so much more radical than the culture. Times have changed and the gospel has NOT and should NOT. however our methodology has to. We have to be willing to do things differently. Think of advertisers and marketers. Why do the change the packaging on their product every so often? Because people get bored with the old packaging. Why can’t we take that principle and apply it to the church? Don’t change the product, the Gospel, just change the packaging.
Tony I know this is what you guys are doing and it’s amazing. Lives are being changed. I commend you on the work you are doing and how you are following through to where God is leading New Spring. It’s such an awesome thing.
My biggest question is this. how come when the church isn’t reaching people we complain and gripe about it? Saying things like, “They’re church just can’t do evangelism>” BUT when it comes to churches reaching the lost we often say, “Man…those are a bunch of heathens down there. They are twisting the gospel.” I don’t really get it.
We are always the first group of people to shoot the wounded and those we don’t like first. Sad thing is we take out a chunk of the family everytime.
Tony,
Thanks for showing your patience and heart through this discussion. I’ve been following you guys for a while and can say without a doubt you are doing a great work. Take encouragement from Nehemiah when he said, “I am doing a great work and can’t come down.” (Neh. 6:3) Don’t let people who hide behind fake names try to stop your work.
Go Newspring Go! Reach souls for Christ!
~George
As a native of Pendleton, SC now serving in a church in Pennsylvania, I read your(Tony) and Perry’s blog for encouragement, accountability, renewal, and to keep up with Newspring, the church that could never happen in a place like Anderson(wink wink). At first, I was a Newspring sceptic, but now I think it was because of my unbelief and envy. Can God really do something so amazing in our community and why isn’t he doing it at our church? Now, I recognize God’s spirit at work at Newspring and pray daily for Him to move and work in the hearts and lives of my new church and community. For those who say church(Sunday worship) isn’t evangelistic, then why have an altar call every Sunday and give the people the opportunity to accept Christ if they’re not really supposed to be there anyway? For me, Newspring has been a catalyst in my life and ministry. They have made me want to be a better and more creative minister of the Gospel. At the end of the day, we’re all trying to win people to the same King and Kingdom. Right now, some are just doing a better job than others and they should be commended and thanked, not torn down and ridiculed.