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27 Responses to “When you think you’re right…”

1. anne jackson
   November 8th, 2007 at 10:08 pm

   

   great stuff, tony. i hope you have a good time in SD.

2. paul peterson
   November 9th, 2007 at 5:18 am

   

   I am overwhelmed by the infighting within the church. I don’t think it’s supposed to be like this.
   On the one hand it angers me. On the other hand it breaks my heart.
   Thank you for this post.

3. J.R. Lee
   November 9th, 2007 at 6:29 am

   

   Great post! Keep doin what your doing!

4. Milan Ford
   November 9th, 2007 at 7:12 am

   

   Right on, Tony. What a crazy world it would be if all of our churches did things exactly alike…

   …you’re absolutely right! God bless.

5. Karen
   November 9th, 2007 at 8:13 am

   

   Amen and Amen brother!!!! What reaches one person doesn’t reach another. As long as there’s no compromise on the Word of God and His Sovereignty. Thanks for your words!

6. Roland Thomas Gilbert
   November 9th, 2007 at 8:24 am

   

   So true. And I agree with your points. “Doing church” (right or wrong) is such a personal thing, it’s difficult to see past your own preferences for how you want things to be. You can easily miss sight of following through with your own calling, performing your ministry with excellence, and attacking others who differ from your opinions. We forget: In essential things, clarity. In non-essential things, freedom. In all things, unity. Let’s be “on mission” together.
   Can’t we all just get along?

7. jamie
   November 9th, 2007 at 8:31 am

   

   Right On! I see it as there are many different types of people who God wants to reach so it only stands to reason that there will be different methods of meeting different people’s needs. The most important thing to remember when starting a church is to do church the way God calls you to not the way that someone else tells you.

8. Bernard Shuford
   November 9th, 2007 at 10:07 am

   

   Sounds like you guys must be taking some heat over the billboards again :)

   Do what God says do, Tony. Make sure it’s God, then do it. I’ve never known understood why it’s possible for someone else to know that I’m “sinning” when God fails to reveal it to me. Curious, isn’t it?

9. Michael
   November 9th, 2007 at 10:25 am

   

   “If God’s telling you to do it, you should do it.”

   That’s awfully broad. Where’s the line? This is the phrase that the most notorious criminals in the history of civilization have used. What’s the standard?

10. bob robbins
    November 9th, 2007 at 10:53 am

    

    I don’t know if this helps you out or not but here is my personal experience.

    I used to get upset at people/churches that didn’t do church they way I thought it should be done. I am not sure how or why that changed but I now believe that it takes all kinds to reach all kinds.

    It is Envy that keeps us from celebrating the blessings and success of others.

    Tony, I celebrate NewSprings blessing and success. I am also pleased with what LifePoint has done and God’s blessing here.

    It takes all kinds to reach all kinds.

11. Glen
    November 9th, 2007 at 11:09 am

    

    Hey Tony! A few years back I heard John Ortberg talk about spiritual formation. Becoming a person who truly loves God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength. Loving your neighbor as yourself. That’s extremely demanding. That requires sensitivity and cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Many people don’t want to go there.

    Instead, they create boundary markers to define who’s in and who’s not. In Jesus’ day and early church, the boundary markers are sabbath-keeping, dietary regulations and circumcision. The key thing with boundary markers are that they’re external and superficial. You live according to the boundary markers, you’re in (no matter what the condition of your heart). You disregard the group’s boundary markers, you’re out (evil and need to be criticized, shunned, in Jesus’ case killed).

    I grew up baptist. Boundary markers: don’t dance, don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t play cards. You’re in, even if you’re greedy, lustful, proud, self-righteous. But if you sincerely love and serve God and have a glass of wine to celebrate Christ’s birth–you’re out. Disregarded the boundary markers.

    So this has happened in Christianity thoughout history it seems to me. Creating external, superficial markers to decide who’s in and who’s not. That’s easier than loving God and others with a Christlike attitude and heart, which could be lived out in many forms.

    Could it be that some within church movements: say house church, cell church, seeker church, emergent church, etc. are creating their own boundary markers (external signs to show who’s in, i.e., therefore righteous). If another church steps outside the boundary markers, that threatens my sense of righteousness, my identity, my relationship with God. So I feel compelled to tear down others who have another philosophy of minsitry?

    I know this isn’t the full picture. The contours of the issue are more complex than this. But I do think it’s part of the story.

    Grace and Peace!

12. tony morgan
    November 9th, 2007 at 11:34 am

    

    Michael, generally, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It is broad. We have freedom in Christ.

    But, to address your question more specifically, we have God’s Word and the Holy Spirit to guide us. I would rather follow that lead than the lead of bitter, angry “Christians” who think their sole purpose is to tell me what I can and can’t do.

    The confidence we can have is that God is sovereign. I trust that the God I worship and serve is big enough and powerful enough to build his Church where he wants the way he wants.

    This is biblical folks. This has happened before. The religious people didn’t know how to handle the “new church” that was gaining converts in Acts either. Peter and the apostles were using methods that were foreign to the religious establishment to point people towards God.

    Here was the advice that Gamaliel shared back then, “Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God” (Acts 5:38-39).

    Oh, one last thought, if you’re condemning other Christ-followers, that’s a sin. If you’re creating division in the church, that’s a sin. If you are bitter and consistently angry and lack kindness towards others, that’s a sin. When people who call themselves Christians act in this way, people outside the church call it hypocrisy. They’re right.

    tony

13. Paul Dunkelbarger
    November 9th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    

    Right on, Pastor’s need to have the flexibility to do what is right for them. I watch Perry on-line and many of the pastors I grew up under couldn’t pull off what Perry does, and I am not so sure that Perry would be as efffective just standing there behind the pulpit.

14. Joe Case
    November 9th, 2007 at 11:46 am

    

    You go Tony!!!!!
    J.

15. Shaun Sells
    November 9th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    

    Tony -

    First of all you are right. We spend way too much time worried about what other churches are doing (right or wrong) and not enough time seeking God for what he desire our church to do.

    The complaining goes both ways, the old school thinks the young whipper snappers are “dangerous” to the doctrine of their choosing (doctrine is of no value to the unsaved, who happen to be unwilling to go to your old school church). The young whipper snappers think the old school is “irrelevant” (tell that to the millions already attending old school churches).

    And God is God of all of them . . .

16. Derek
    November 9th, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    

    Overall, I would agree, especially with this statement Tony just made:

    “We have God’s Word and the Holy Spirit to guide us.”

    But what does it mean when our churches look nothing like the churches described in the NT? What does it mean when we do not allow the Spirit to guide our gatherings?

    It’s one thing to say someone is wrong. It’s another thing to point out that modern churches don’t look like what is described in the NT.

17. Lucas Baerg
    November 9th, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    

    I 100% agree…and I think I’m right…Is that wrong??? :)

    Someone just fowarded an article from Crosswalk.com to me. They are slamming Willowcreek and how they are admitting that they led people astray with their seeker sensitive movement.

    Some people just don’t get it and I don’t think they ever will!

18. anne jackson
    November 10th, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    

    it’s really easy to get frustrated at people who don’t “get it.” and because of that, we should extend them an even more radical grace…

19. Sandy Gibbes
    November 11th, 2007 at 11:06 am

    

    Good thoughts T-Mo.

    Derek -

    I was just curious about two things. One, what or how would you describe the churches of the NT (in your words)? Two, how are they similar/different from “our” churches? I would love to hear you explain these a little more. Thanks man!

20. Nick Poole
    November 11th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    

    Great post Tony! I think it’s the difference in perspective: Folding your arms in condemnation or linking arms in cooperation.

21. Darlene
    November 12th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    

    Thanks for your post. I was raised/grew up in a church that had the attitude of “we do it the right way” and it wasn’t until I became an adult in my twenties did I discover that there were MANY who did church differently than the church I grew up in, and not only did they do things differently, but it was clear that God was at work in those places.

    It was a real eye opener for me and I embrace it, yet growing up in that type of environment has given me quite a few friends who wonder a little about my salvation because of the types of churches I have attended since leaving that church.

    But it feels good to be free and to discover that God is not limited by one model - He’s so much bigger than that!

    Thanks for the post.

22. Bernard Shuford
    November 12th, 2007 at 11:52 am

    

    ”
    “If God’s telling you to do it, you should do it.”

    That’s awfully broad. Where’s the line? This is the phrase that the most notorious criminals in the history of civilization have used. What’s the standard?”

    You’re going to draw a “line” inside of the command of God? I don’t believe that God writes on a wall somewhere and tells Perry and Tony what to do in minute detail, so, yes, they may make mistakes and “miss” the perfect direction of God in some details. I don’t know. BUT, if God is giving direction and controlling the vision and they are subject to God, I think the real mistakes (as judged by God, not as judged by me and you) will be few and far between, and when they happen, I believe these guys are man enough and Godly enough to step up to the plate and say “We screwed up.”

    If this is not of God, trust me, He has what it takes to put a stop to it. If it is, I am a fool to try to tear it down. Does that make these guys perfect? No. Does their imperfection justify my attempts to tear them down? No.

    Murderers? I think you’re popping up an extremist response. We’re not talking about clear violation of God’s laws; we’re talking about ministry methods. I also think that if we’re REALLY concerned about these guys, the greatest thing we can do is pray for them and pray for their circle of influence. If there’s a problem, God is totally capable of reigning them in. While I may not agree with every breath they take, I’m not going to waste the blogosphere trying to destroy them. I’m going to try to be the best man I can for Christ and hope that I can have the opportunity to present the gospel to, oh, maybe just TEN PERCENT of the people that Perry Noble has…

    How many megachurch pastors have I prayed for today? Have I even prayed for MY pastor today?????

23. clayton king
    November 12th, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    

    Your insights are always refreshing, so I thought I would write to say so. Thanks for being a voice of clarity and cool (as in even-handed, not James Dean, though you do emit a James Dean-esque sense of it.) I pray for you and the rest of the Newspring staff daily. I GOT YOUR BACK. -clayton

24. Tiffany Tucker
    November 12th, 2007 at 9:22 pm

    

    I am SO thankful that there are churches out there “doing church” in different ways! Because of this, my husband and I have found a church where we find joy in serving the Lord. My husband came from a traditional Baptist background, and I came from a non-Christian household. I accepted Christ at 17, and never felt like I fit in a traditional church environment. I’m not saying it’s “good” or “bad”- just not for me. We both began attending our church in college, and just knew this was where God was asking us to serve. On the flip side, one of the godliest men I know, my father-in-law, serves wholeheartedly at their more traditional Baptist church. He loves his role as a Sunday School leader and deacon, but would not consider attending a church with our style. Whenever we are together as a family, we discuss what God is doing in the lives of people in BOTH churches and we celebrate together. Because God has established multiple styles of churches, millions of people are being reached for Christ around the world in a way that they can understand and relate to. Thank God for that! :)

25. Derek
    November 13th, 2007 at 11:20 am

    

    Sandy asked: “I was just curious about two things. One, what or how would you describe the churches of the NT (in your words)? Two, how are they similar/different from “our” churches?”

    One of the awesome things about the Word of God being accessible to everyone, as opposed to the thousands of years when the Catholic church restricted it to clergy alone (by not allowing it to be translated into common languages), is that anyone can read what is described in the NT and compare it to the church as it stands in their time. This is what Luther and others did during the reformation, noticing a huge gap between the church’s theology and what is described in the NT. This is what others are doing today, looking more at structure and practice (which was not significantly altered during the reformation!). I would encourage anyone to read specifically what the NT says about church meetings and practice and compare. Ask the question why we’re not more like that. You’ll find that few people want to engage in that discussion.

    The biggest differences to me are that we have maintained a huge emphasis on clergy vs. laity, and we continue to restrict participation in church gatherings to the “professionals.” Paul clearly describes a different approach, where the purpose of the church gathering is mutual edification, where believers are led by the Spirit to participate.

    There’s more to it than just that, of course, but I think that’s one of the more visible differences, and probably one of the central issues. I’ve been writing a lot about this stuff, on my blog, that you can scrutinize. (And I actually encourage it - I could use the scrutiny!)

    Bernard said: “If there’s a problem, God is totally capable of reigning them in.”

    Like I said earlier, there’s a difference between people criticizing churches because it differs from their experience (e.g “God hates rock music!”) and comparing modern church to the scripture (e.g. by pointing out that the clergy/laity division undermines the priesthood of all believers). The former are just complaining. God corrected Israel through the prophets, who were rarely listened to. Today, we’ve banished prophets and apostles, by claiming they no longer exist (though there is no scriptural support for this).

    I guess I’m saying that if God is going to reign the modern church in, He’s going to do it through prophets and apostles, and you can be sure that they will not fit the mold of what the modern-day church expects them to look like. And you can be sure that most people will not be willing to listen.

26. Art
    November 15th, 2007 at 9:25 am

    

    “You can be sure… You can be sure.”

    We can? How do you know? Are you a prophet? Has God told you this already?

    Also, lazy, pew-warming Christians are what damages the “priesthood of all believers,” not any clergy/laity divide. People are just plain lazy and let clergy/pastors do all of the work. We’d be more than happy to have them take the initiative and do some work for a change.

27. Brad
    January 2nd, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    

    Thanks for the thoughts Tony. I enjoyed reading your views and insights into the book.