Get Your Strategy On

I just finished a review copy of Pagan Christianity? by Frank Viola and George Barna. This is a revised and updated version of the same book that Viola published in 2002. Basically, the book is an attack on the institutional church and Viola and Barna’s attempt to portray the house church movement as the only biblical method for the church body to gather. In fact, the "final thought" that the book shares is a three-step process for people to leave their current church.
Viola and Barna use the book to try to prove that just about everything that the institutional church does is pagan and unbiblical. That includes the building, the worship leader, the sermon, the role of the pastor, paying church staff and getting Bible training outside of the local church. Their overarching conclusion is that if a method wasn’t used in the
first-century church and was invented by someone who isn’t a
Christ-follower, it doesn’t belong in the ministry of today’s local
church. This, of course, removes the possibility that our God is big enough to
redeem advances over the last twenty centuries for his purposes.
Here are some of their quotes:
One of the most accurate statements that the authors made was this: "Every Christian who has ever lived interprets the Bible through the lens of his or her own experience and thoughts. We are no exception." This book is the perfect example of that. I think the authors do a good job, as examples, of reminding us that we are a priesthood of all believers, that we shouldn’t hold our methods as sacred, that our methods may be creating barriers to spiritual growth and biblical community, and that we would do well to try to model the early church. Where I think they stand on dangerous ground is to take the position that their method is the only biblical approach to ministry.
In fact, to discredit the institutional church, they also had to attack the "nonscriptural practices" of people like John Calvin, Martin Luther, D.L. Moody, Charles Wesley and Billy Graham. Bill Hybels, as an example, has for years also taught and written about following the model of the first-century church. Needless to say, his interpretation of what that looks like as demonstrated through the ministry of Willow Creek is very different than the house-church-only conclusion of Viola and Barna.
It’s unfortunate that Viola and Barna chose to take this tact with their book. I think the church could have benefited from this historical account of the various church methodologies they reviewed. There’s a learning in that history that should remind us not to hold our methods sacred but to focus our worship on Jesus himself. The irony, of course, is that Viola and Barna chose to use their book to raise the house church movement as the one sacred method for gathering the believers.
By the way I’ve stated before, I’m not necessarily opposed to the house church movement. I’m sure for some people it’s the expression of faith that best helps them experience biblical community and spiritual growth. Though it’s not for me, it’s just another reminder that it takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people.
Tony Morgan is a pastor and the Chief Strategic Officer at NewSpring Church where he develops creative solutions for communications, technology and NewSpring Ministries--the church's ministry that equips other church leaders.
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Cindy Beall
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:39 am
Wow. While I’m sure the book might bring about a few things for us to think about, it seems to me they have just succeeded in bringing even more division into the Kingdom of God. We really don’t need any more.
Thanks for giving your two cents.
Scott Magdalein
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 am
Wow. Disappointed in Barna. Not surprised by Viola. I wonder if they’re aware of the harm they’re doing to the church. I’m sure they mean well, but to explain how to leave your church to attend a house church is scary, especially coming from guys who are authoritative in this area.
To add, we had a group from our church split off to start a “house church” about two years ago. They started with about five families and met on Saturday nights. They currently have five families and now meet every-other Saturday night. Sad story, but the folks won’t give up the endeavor because they feel it’s the most Biblical form of doing church. If it was so Biblical, you’d think there would have been more fruit coming from it.
Richard H
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Not having read they’re book, your criticism, in light of your presentation of their arguments, sounds pretty good. While they seem to recognize their own immersion in a particular culture, they seem unwilling to recognize that the NT church was just as much immersed in a particular cultural setting. It wasn’t, and the NT doesn’t depict, a culture free institution or organization we can simply copy. Rather, it depicts a group of Spirit-led Jesus followers who make use of the cultures around them as they seek to do their part in accomplishing Jesus’ agenda.
Jonathan Herron
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Because, you know, when I think of pagans, I think of guys like Luther, Calvin, & Moody.
Guess we have to write off the entire nation of South Korea, which was reached by the mega-church, eh?
Derek
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:21 pm
“The stunning reality is that today’s sermon has no root in Scripture. Rather, it was borrowed from pagan culture, nursed and adopted into the Christian faith.”
“There is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that supports the existence of the modern-day pastor!”
Whatever you think of how they criticize the modern church (this is not new to either of them, and I’d be surprised if you expected anything different), both of these statements are absolutely true.
When we look at how similar “churched” Christians are to the rest of culture - by and large, as materialistic and self-centered as the “unchurched” - we need to be looking in more detail at our practices and methodology. The fact that many of our practices have pagan roots SHOULD trouble us. There’s a reason why every religion in the world relies on some form of clergy/priests presenting truth in a ritualistic, presentational format. It is a method of control. There is also a good reason why this methodology was absent from the New Testament church.
Sometimes God establishes things a particular way for a reason. If it’s criticism to suggest that we should work back towards the way the church was established, then I’m certainly a critic.
The best point I’ve read on this topic for years is by Wolfgang Simson, in “Houses that Change the World,” where he says this:
“If it was possible for the very essence of the gospel - salvation by faith, justification by grace - to be buried under the sand of history, what about the rest? If we can gravely err in the very key and core issues, could we also have erred in other, lesser issues? The fact that the Bible was again given into the hands of common people started what I call the history of rediscovery: it was the turning point where the church started to climb again out of darkness, escape its own structural prison and rediscover, step by step, long-forgotten truth and long-forgotten practices, including the house church as an organic form of church.”
Lest you get the wrong idea, Simson is as much a critic as Viola. But this is one of the statements that convinced me that house church proponents had a huge point.
Personally, I’m really looking forward to this book (been on order for a few months now).
Tony Steward
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
First Viola and Barna are obviously trying to sell books instead of trying to get people to listen, thus the tact they seem to take in the book. But I don’t see this book causing any real harm because it is too stuck in the idea instead of being a practical stepping stone for a transition.
Second, I have been studying the house church movement recently and even if that is the base structure, people still desire to “get the whole group together.” It isn’t anything more than wanting to interact with the community as a whole, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Todd Stafford
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
So, if we are returning to the first century church, is everyone going to give up everything you own and live in a commune. Are you going to sell your lands and houses? Look at Acts 4.32-35. If we are going go back, we need to go all the way back.
If you read the books of Acts as a whole, you see the church evolving and adapting. As you read Paul’s letter to the various local churches, you see the “church” continue to mature and develop and adjust to fit local needs.
Could the current church use some reforming? Without question. Do we throw away 2000 years of development just because it’s not perfect? Some how I don’t think we should.
Corbett Reeves
January 2nd, 2008 at 5:15 pm
This has been a pretty sticky subject lately as 4 key families (one staff member and one senior leadership member) left to start this sort of thing in June, taking with them a good-sized percentage of our body. Of course, house church ministry can be effective and as Tony said, it takes all kinds of churches, but the group left not seeking our church’s blessing as they seek to minister in a different way, but as a protest against all of the things we do that are wrong.
I don’t think they had read this book, but “The Relational Way” by Boren and “The Forgotten Ways” by Hirsch played a big part in their decision to leave. I do know that Barna quotes peppered much of their thought process.
Sad, really.
Derek
January 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Tony S: “It is too stuck in the idea instead of being a practical stepping stone for a transition.”
I used to have it in my head that a stepping stone would be appropriate. But every house church (or cell church) expert I’ve ever read has said specifically that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to make the transition. Some shifts are too large to cut into smaller chunks.
Todd: “So, if we are returning to the first century church, is everyone going to give up everything you own and live in a commune. Are you going to sell your lands and houses?”
I’ve heard of groups that do that kind of thing and guess who criticizes them the most? “Traditional” Christians.
Nevertheless, we *should* look at Acts 4:32-35. And it is primarily focused on *sharing*. Which happens little amongst members of a traditional American church. We’re too busy being good little credit-driven consumers and keeping up with the Jones’! I don’t think a direct reading of that passage requires us to sell everything and live in communes. It just requires us to be more anti-consumeristic, focused more on others’ needs than our own desires, and having a commitment to live well underneath our means. But I think that committing millions of dollars to building projects runs directly against all of that.
Todd: “Do we throw away 2000 years of development just because it’s not perfect? Some how I don’t think we should.”
Actually, there’s a huge chunk of that history that we SHOULD throw away. Worship of Mary (431)? The “pontifex maximus” (big bridgebuilder) (607)? Worship of images and relics (786)? Holy water (850)? Celibacy (1079)? Indulgences (1190)? Transubstantiation (1215)? Bible forbidden to laymen (1229)? Purgatory (1439)? Then the culmination of the clergy-dominated system - declaring beliefs like this to have equal authority with Scripture (1545).
That just a small, partial list. Guess what it all started with? The banning of house churches in 380. That’s 1200 years of history we SHOULD just throw away. Including the basilica/cathedral style worship, which was developed not using New Testament theology, but by co-opting what was common in every other religion in the world (including Jewish and pagan systems).
In another book, Viola says “the Reformation recovered the truth of the priesthood of all believers. But it failed to restore the necessary practices that embody this teaching.” Practices described in the New Testament. Practices that the house church movement are restoring, and that the traditional church is resisting because its practices are, for the most part, incompatible with those described in the New Testament.
Luther, Calvin, etc. got a bad reaction from the traditional church because they took a look at scripture and noticed that the theology of the church looked nothing like the theology in scripture. The house church movement gets a bad reaction because they’re looking at scripture and noticing that the principles, practices, and methods of the church looks nothing like those in scripture.
Joseph
January 2nd, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Tony,
I must admit that you are extremely gracious in your evaluation of their book and the purpose it serves for the larger Body of Believers universally. May I suggest that no one has a monopoly on wisdom. In order for them to write from such a definitive perspective, the way they have written, an element of pride must no doubt be present. Unfortunately, pride never serves any useful purpose since, God resists the proud.
Brian Daugherty
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:59 am
Tony, sadly, some will dismiss house churches entirely because of what Barna and Viola say that they disagree with and think is entirely insane.
Megachurches are not for everyone - but neither are house churches, nor internet churches, nor small nor mid-sized churches. All have their problems, and the temptation is there for most of us to drop the hammer on the ones we criticize and damn them to hell. Some of us have done it. But it doesn’t do much good, especially when you want those you disagree with to hear you out.
I expect to receive a copy of this book soon, and will reserve comment until then. Meanwhile, I have read Barna’s Revolution, and am mindful of the fact that discernment is necessary to figure out what is Biblical and what isn’t Biblical…and that is always a good discipline to practice. I expect it will be necessary with this new book too.
Gene Mason
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:21 am
This argument takes on a whole new flavor when you look at the growing church outside the US. Fact is, China’s Christians is all underground house churches, and they’re going to have the largest Christian (and English speaking) nation by 2025. No buildings, just believers.
I’m not dissing the institution of the church entirely–I’m part of it. But we gotta be willing to learn from those who are livin’ the basics apart from the buildings…
Art
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:36 am
“They will bring their own songs, they will write their own songs, they will minister out of what Christ has shown them–with no human leader present!”
Um… no they won’t. They won’t do much of anything without a leader. They won’t even clear the 16 inches of snow (don’t you miss northern Indiana Tony?) off the church steps and handicap ramp. They leave it for the “leader” to do it alone. They won’t bring food for the food pantry. “Leader’s” job. They won’t even show up to worship let alone write their own songs.
Barna and Viola overestimate the commitment that nominal Christians have to anything. Sheep won’t do much else but die without a shepherd
Derek
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:59 am
Art: “Barna and Viola overestimate the commitment that nominal Christians have to anything. Sheep won’t do much else but die without a shepherd.”
This cracks me up. The passive spectator mentality is a byproduct of the presentational style of worship/teaching, and then you say house church can’t work? One of the reasons I’ve been drawn to house church is because of it works against people’s tendencies to be docile. We’ve had people leave our house church because they just wanted to sit in a pew and “be fed.” That’s exactly the kind of damage Viola speaks of.
Nick Strobel
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:17 am
it’s a shame when people run to an extreme. While calling the entire church pagan is overtly ludicrous, it’s never bad to examine some of our shortfalls; ie is it really biblical for pastors to be quasi-celebrities with tv shows and billboards, as children of american evangelicalism, are there things about distinct christianity we get wrong? I don’t presume to be intelligent enough to authoritatively say, I think maybe we should be asking more questions
Corbett Reeves
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
“Barna and Viola overestimate the commitment that nominal Christians have to anything.”
I think the issue that Barna and Viola are addressing is the very existence of nominal Christians. They believe that the house church method is a better way to have every believer a minister.
Steve Caronna
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Although I am now the pastor of a “contemporary traditional church”, I became a Christian in ‘73 during the Jesus movement. Contempt for the traditional church and the “Holier than thou” mentality that comes with it is not new…I had it for years. How/why did I change? Because “Church” had to become about others, and who others are and how to bring the Light Of Christ to them, instead of “How can I be cool and do my own thing?”
Nick Carnes
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the context of the book based on the review and comments that you have shared in the post. I will have to read it for myself, but based on my understanding, I immediately cannot see the basis for their claims.
A church like New Spring is a perfect example of the need for the “institutionalized church.” When multitudes are being saved, there has to be some type of organization to help move those new believers into followers of Christ. Does the institutionalized church have to all look the same? Definitely not, but I believe it is important for them to exist. Home Churches may be great in some cases, but definitely not in all cases.
The Bible gave an example of how it was done in that culture at that time when it gives us the accounts of the 1st Century church. I can see where there would be serious challenges in a home church as much as there are in larger “institutionalized” churches.
Derek
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Nick: “Home Churches may be great in some cases, but definitely not in all cases. The Bible gave an example of how it was done in that culture at that time when it gives us the accounts of the 1st Century church.”
The Bible gives an example of what Jesus’ hand-picked followers started, being led by the Holy Spirit. These were the guys who developed our very theology. Who were performing miracles. I think we should take their suggestions regarding the methods and practices of the church a little more seriously.
If we claim that their methods and practices were culture-specific, it is only a small step to say that their theological implementation was culture-specific as well. This is the step that many Christians take today with a liberal theology. Claiming that there is no such thing as hell, for instance. We can’t claim that the theology is immovable while also claiming that the methods and practices are entirely relative.
Anyone can move multitudes. The question is, what are they being saved into? Does what they are being saved into look anything like the relational church described in the New Testament, where all believers contributed to the gatherings, lived simply, shared with each other, and were led by the Holy Spirit in an organic, functional way as the body of Christ, not as members of an organization?
This is what the house movement is about. It’s a lot more than just the location. Even comparisons to the New Testament church don’t matter to you, then I can understand why Barna and Viola sound nuts. But I’ve begun to take the New Testament a lot more seriously, so they make a heck of a lot of sense to me.
David Liem
January 4th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I thought the bit about sheep not be able to do much on their own ‘other than die’, was hilarius. It seems that sometimes that is all too true. I remember Jesus losing patience on one occasion with his disciples when they couldn’t cast out a demon. He said something to the effect of ‘how much longer do I have to put up with you unbelieving people’!! I think anyone who has ever tried to lead another, whether they be a spouse, children or coworkers has experienced this kind of heart-killing response to their servant-hood attempts. I also love this quote from Rolland Allen’s book, ‘The Spontaneous Expansion of the Church and the Cause that Hinder it’.
‘Nevertheless there has been in the last few years very considerable advance, advance so great and in so many different parts of the world that it is making a serious impression upon our minds. If it is true, as it is true, that outcastes in India, and labourers in Nigeria, and Uganda, and China and Corea, are capable, not only of being led and directed to do this work; but of doing it spontaneously of their own initiative, not in one or two rare cases only, but in many, we cannot but be impressed. The same results seem to follow the same teaching all the world over. The conviction that new converts can beget new converts leads them from strength to strength: the conviction that they will fall if they are not nursed leads them from weakness to weakness. The difference lies not in the nature or in the environment of the converts; but in the faith of the missionaries.’
You can read the entire book at http://www.gospeltruth.net/allen/spon_expanofch.htm , very interesting since it was written in 1927. Missionary leaders who at great cost and personal sacrifice were/are hindering the Gospel. Why? In business we call it the ‘not invented here syndrome’. Failure to recognize that good things, that contribute to the bottom line are somehow suspect and can’t be used if we didn’t think/plan/teach them. We have to do it our own way even if that means leaving God out of the picture.
My previous church life has included 4 years of para-church ministry, 2 in a concert/coffee house, and another 2 in sheltering/training/evangelizing homeless families. Then as church elder for 18 years, during the last 4 my wife and I lead an Alpha Course. When the pastor, that I helped bring in, turned my then current church from charismatic to something resembling Baptist I went looking for God in a new direction. Thought I’d found it in this new cool inner city church ministry with a vision for the youth, the poor, an the nations. They are doing house churches and after a year they appointed me a HC leader and turned us lose. That was just over a year ago, and I’ve discovered that our house church looks just like our cell group did at my old Baptist/charismatic church. We do house church on Wednesday night and big church on Saturday evening. We still have buildings (church, rectory, training center, and discipleship house), support a pastor, an apostolic fellow that travels around the U. S. who encourages and helps interested parties to start house churches, another who specializes in ‘inner healing’ ministry, and another who supports our 24-7 prayer ministry. Our house church ministry has had their successes in discipling people but also many failures.
I like the house church idea! Get away from the hugely expensive and unprofitable professional. Professional clergy/staff, professional church service, professional programs, professional counseling, professional missionaries, etc. Ask everyone to be a professional christian, discourage everyone from being a professional bystander. Make them stewards of their own money and time and their relationship to God and other people. Get them out talking to the rest of the world they live in, about Jesus, about His kingdom, their citizenship responsibilities and benefits if they choose him as their king. Warning them that time is running out, and that when the king comes back for His subjects, those that have rejected His kingship will not fare well.
I’ve decided I’m going to try for a ‘real’ house church. Everybody talks/writes about doing the stuff but it seems only a very few people are actually doing the stuff. I think I know why, house church is a lot more difficult than standard church. Unless you were born with the ability to heal the sick and raise the dead your Gospel delivery is probably lacking a bit of punch. Standard church puts that kind of stuff in the paid professional’s lap, not ours. We pay the bills, show up on time, be Christianly polite and civil. Leave the rest to someone who is especially educated, anointed, ordained, and can tell good stories. Then we both agree together that we won’t judge on another. Then we hope like hell that this arrangement is what is good and acceptable in God’s sight. Maybe it is, but I don’t think it’s what He’s hoping for. I know it’s not what He Himself said or did. Or even what He told us we would be able to do, or should do. So where does a 25 year veteran Christian start? For me, its been reading the Gospels, what does Jesus really, really say? Praying specifically, with some spotty results. Praying for the sick, nope, there still sick. Introduce myself to strangers; in the doctor’s waiting room, I’m sick. Didn’t tell them about the kingdom, Lord, help me to get past what holds me from talking about You. I was raised to be considerate of others and I think I feel like I’m forcing myself upon them when I share You.
So this is what it looks like in one man’s trench, the battle rages.
Nick
January 5th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Derek: I believe it is futile to argue over the details of how you carry out the specific principles of what the disciples did in the NT church. One could argue that it has to look identical to what the disciples did, yet I doubt that is what Christ had in mind. Rather, I believe the scripture gives us a guideline as to what principles Christ expects out of his church, and he gives us freedom and creativity on how we carry that out.
We are warned in scripture to not do things in vain repetition. We are also shown by scripture the dangers of allowing our methods to become tradition and standard practice where as we become stagnant, apathetic, and dead. This is the problem with a segment of traditional churches who refuse to change in order to reach a new generation. The same dangers can and do apply to a philosophy that says our methods and the details of how we carry out those methods have to mimic that of the NT church. Methods and Principles are different.
A healthy church will be found doing those principles given to us by the founders, an unhealthy church will most likely not be found following through with those principles. What the church looks like while practicing and putting those principles into action can look different in style and in the details of how those principles are being acted upon. Whether it is in a home church or a “institutionalized church” I don’t think it matters, what matters is, are we doing the principles that the Bible makes clear his church should be doing?
One last thought…I think it is a bit over doing it to suggest that for one to believe that the methods used in the NT Testament church were culture specific is moving towards saying that the theology of those methods were culture specific as well. I am sure some churches may do this, but if they are trying to minimize theology based on culture, I would seriously doubt that their church has a solid Biblical foundation to begin with. Methods cannot be confused with Principles. It reminds me of what Rick Warren says in the PD Church book, We must change our methods, but not change our message. The theology of the Bible does not change, but Christ gives us freedom in how we implement it.
Derek
January 7th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Nick, I’ve never said “identical” and none of the house church proponents I’ve ever read or talked would say “identical.” That’s not the point.
The point is that the implementation is always part of the message. If I’m telling people that part of their job is to take care of widows and orphans (which in our culture would also reflect other global poverty issues), yet I’m spending most of my personal money on all the latest fads and condoning the church spending money on elaborate buildings, presentation systems and programs to server the church members, doesn’t that completely undermine my message?
When Paul talks about each person having an opportunity to speak in a church gathering, and our worship services are limited to two or three people ever having an opportunity to share, shouldn’t that make us question our current methods?
When the Bible never speaks about utilizing a church “building,” and we have churches all across America spending tens of millions of dollars each (or more) on buildings, shouldn’t that make us question our current methods?
When churches are building these buildings instead of using resources to help those in need, shouldn’t that make us question our current methods?
When the Bible speaks very strongly against a clergy/laity division, never mentions a professional approach to ministry, and never condones the payment of church leaders, shouldn’t that make us question our current methods? (1 Timothy 5:17 refers to *honor*, not payment. How a translation translates this verse is now one of my tests of a good translation.)
When the Bible speaks of the church confessing sins to each other, praying for each other, taking care of each other, and most Christians in most churches barely even know each others’ names, shouldn’t that make us question our current methods?
Our gatherings, relationships, leadership style, location, and use of resources are as far away from NT descriptions as you can image. Anyone giving a good objective look at the NT church, and then looking at modern church organizations, can see that. Especially unbelievers.
I’m not sure how much freedom Christ gives us in the implementation of His church. I think we have some freedom within the descriptions that the NT has given us, but the current modern church is very far outside of those descriptions.
And in reality, I have experienced more freedom outside of the modern church than I ever experienced inside of it. It is the fullness of Christ that I am seeking, and I believe that this is based much more on my obedience to Scripture than my ability to be strategic and innovative. I wish it were based more on the latter - I’m better at it! But strategy and innovation only make sense when you’re staying true to Scripture - not just in theology, but in practice also.
Jon Zens
January 7th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Tony, with all due respect, what you wrote above is not true. This is not the author’s point at all. In fact, the authors acknowledge God’s work through the church over the ages. They say outright that they don’t believe that if a practice wasn’t in the early church or invented by a Christian it’s bad. You seem to have missed that somehow. Frank Viola, one of the authors, is dialoguing with those who have objections to and questions about the book at http://www.ptmin.org/pcobjections.htm. I recommend reading it. Here is one segment from PC that challenges your assessment:
“Also, just because a practice is picked up from culture does not make it wrong in and of itself, though we must be discerning. As author Frank Senn notes, ‘We cannot avoid bringing our culture to church with us; it is a part of our very being. But in the light of tradition we need to sort out those cultural influences that contribute to the integrity of Christian worship from those that detract from it.’
It is in our best interest to scour the words of God to determine the core principles and ethos of the early church and to restore those elements to our lives.”
I think in this discussion more thought needs to be given to the assumption that what is called “church” is actually the ekklesia that Christ is building. As I said in another context, “One thing that’s helped me is that once you define ekklesia as an action context where kingdom work takes place (like Mt 18:15ff, 1 Cor 5:1ff, 6:1ff), then you begin to see that ‘church’ is defined by ‘who’ and ‘what.’ As a result, it is not hard to discern that not all that calls itself ‘church’ is actually ekklesia. To put it way too simplistically, yet somewhat truthfully for illustration’s sake, Christ is building the ekklesia, not ‘church.’”
I found the book to be uniquely refreshing and historically accurate. It is, of course, a tough pill to swallow for those having vested ecclesiastical interests. As Upton Sinclair observed, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it” (cited in PC, p.182).
Jon Zens
Tiffany
January 8th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Wow, Tony, you sparked some controversy with that post, huh?
George
February 8th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I would say more but will wait til a later time. But I want to make a couple of points. 1. I’m sick of hearing the “shepherd and sheep” model…If you are a thinking individual you know that analogies prove nothing. Anyone can make a given analogy fit anything. The shepherd/sheep model is a very dangerous one…after all we are not sheep we are men and women…born again by the spirit of the living God. At least I am not a sheep. This idea of leaders and followers has led so many astray and into gross error. I once heard a brother defend some very hurtful things done to many in a congregation by saying, “Well, we were following the pastor (shepherd)”. I think everything…including this book needs to be evaluated within the framework of God’s word…not our ideas our “models” or analogies. The ‘leader” follower analogy is just that…an analogy not some rigid biblical truth. I reject the notion that without leaders we could not function as believers. I think it is a cop out for doing our homework and taking responsibility for our walk, our growth, our beliefs and our maturity in Christ. It keeps us in a state of perpetual babyhood…”I need someone to feed me, to expound ‘God’s word to me”, to tell me what to do, to “lead me” and tell me what is truth and what it error. My Bible says that “if the blind lead the blind BOTH will fall into the pit.” We are also told to work “our our own salvation with fear and trembling”. We will not be able to use “being led” or being “obedient” to leaders as an excuse. I reminds me of Nuremburg! We need to search the scriptures ourselves, seek God ourselves, pray in the secret closet ourselves and study for ourselves.
I would hope this book, which i consider very challenging and biblically based would cause us to ’search the scriptures” to see if what Barns & Viola say is true.
Yes Pagan Christianity is “radical” - “especially for someone” born and bread in the system it must seem totally infuriating and “off the wall”…but so also were Luther’s thesis and those of reformers throughout the history of Christiandom. Tyndale was burned at the stake for trying to make the bible available to the common man and for the heretical idea that each “individual had a right and responsibility to study the scriptures” rather than be told by “the church” what to believe!
You may not agree but Pagan Christianity is a very literate and challenging work. Viola certainly is not the first to hold such beliefs. Study the Waldenses, Zinzendorf and the Moravians, the Anabaptise (many of whom were persecuted by Luther. We have beliefs challenged. It’s healthy>
I’m not defending Frank…he doesn’t need defending. But I know he is a dear brother with a “message” that we all need to at least consider in the light of scripture. I have read it twice and have been challenged by it as has my wife also. I do not take Frank’s word for it but it has caused me to really dig into God’s word and it has made me THINK!
I encourage you to read this book with an open mind then “search the scriptures” and pray and see if there is something there for you. If not. That’s OK too. More importantly, whether or not you read it or agree with it, I challenge you to read your Bible. If you don’t know what it teaches you will only be tossed to and fro by Frank’s writings.
Blessings