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	<title>Comments on: Closing the Back Door (Part 2)</title>
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	<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/</link>
	<description>Trying to be strategic.</description>
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		<title>By: Ron Edmondson</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5743</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Edmondson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5743</guid>
		<description>Tony, I think you are exactly on track here.  I think the key as you said is a balanced approach.  The focus should be on the &quot;front door&quot;; reaching those who are not currently connected to the Body of Christ. After we reach them, we need to disciple them.  If they then leave to better grow elsewhere; God is still honored.

If we are doing a good job with outreach, however, then we should also keep an eye on the back door for those who aren&#039;t yet connected and committed to the Body.

My experience tells me that churches tend to err on one side or the other.  Some do a great job of attracting people to a gathering, but then they are never taken to the next step of discipleship and eventually the people leave; some to other churches, but some to never be seen again. Others don&#039;t do much to grow the church numerically, but they &quot;disciple&quot; people for generations who never multiply themselves. (Which I guess is not really making them true &quot;disciples&quot; of Jesus either.)

Thanks for the reminder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony, I think you are exactly on track here.  I think the key as you said is a balanced approach.  The focus should be on the &#8220;front door&#8221;; reaching those who are not currently connected to the Body of Christ. After we reach them, we need to disciple them.  If they then leave to better grow elsewhere; God is still honored.</p>
<p>If we are doing a good job with outreach, however, then we should also keep an eye on the back door for those who aren&#8217;t yet connected and committed to the Body.</p>
<p>My experience tells me that churches tend to err on one side or the other.  Some do a great job of attracting people to a gathering, but then they are never taken to the next step of discipleship and eventually the people leave; some to other churches, but some to never be seen again. Others don&#8217;t do much to grow the church numerically, but they &#8220;disciple&#8221; people for generations who never multiply themselves. (Which I guess is not really making them true &#8220;disciples&#8221; of Jesus either.)</p>
<p>Thanks for the reminder.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5745</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5745</guid>
		<description>Tony, you are correct.  The only way to fix this is, and I know this rocks the foundation of every pastor&#039;s belief, to have those people who are fed up with trying to bring balance in their own fat churchs, leave and cleave so to speak in a church that teaches the unchurchd that they matter to God.  I have been there and done that, and quite frankly, once the &quot;feed me, feed me&quot; mentality seeps into your church, everything is askew.  There is no room for change, whether it is the music, or the preaching.  Another issue that hasn&#039;t been focused on here is the &quot;church board.&quot;  I realize it is a different issue, but alot of what your church is about is determined by these people.  Look at the heart of the board, and you will see the heart of the church....generally speaking, not very good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony, you are correct.  The only way to fix this is, and I know this rocks the foundation of every pastor&#8217;s belief, to have those people who are fed up with trying to bring balance in their own fat churchs, leave and cleave so to speak in a church that teaches the unchurchd that they matter to God.  I have been there and done that, and quite frankly, once the &#8220;feed me, feed me&#8221; mentality seeps into your church, everything is askew.  There is no room for change, whether it is the music, or the preaching.  Another issue that hasn&#8217;t been focused on here is the &#8220;church board.&#8221;  I realize it is a different issue, but alot of what your church is about is determined by these people.  Look at the heart of the board, and you will see the heart of the church&#8230;.generally speaking, not very good.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Harrison</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5744</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5744</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thread, Tony.  I have to affirm Bob C and Chuck.  Some others may have said likewise, but I can&#039;t see how we&#039;re in an either/or situation, as though one were better than the other.  I just don&#039;t see that represented in Scripture.  While The Great Commission (at least the first half) is a great moment in our Bible, it&#039;s not the only moment.

I would also have to differ and say that most churches I see aren&#039;t focused on discipleship, thereby closing the back door.  They are doing what ever it takes to keep the doors open, which doesn&#039;t disciple or convert.

Since the church is not an organization that does something, we have to grow in our relationships with Christ and each other, for starters, to find out how God has gifted the body through each individual.

Some are Apostles, some are prophets, some are evangelists, some are pastors and some are teachers (with extra emphasis on some).  We have it all.  To what extent are we encouraging those gifts?  How are we as leaders equipping the gifted?  How is ministry growing from the inside out?

When we begin to dialogue in that direction, I believe we&#039;ll see dynamic shifts at both the front door and the back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thread, Tony.  I have to affirm Bob C and Chuck.  Some others may have said likewise, but I can&#8217;t see how we&#8217;re in an either/or situation, as though one were better than the other.  I just don&#8217;t see that represented in Scripture.  While The Great Commission (at least the first half) is a great moment in our Bible, it&#8217;s not the only moment.</p>
<p>I would also have to differ and say that most churches I see aren&#8217;t focused on discipleship, thereby closing the back door.  They are doing what ever it takes to keep the doors open, which doesn&#8217;t disciple or convert.</p>
<p>Since the church is not an organization that does something, we have to grow in our relationships with Christ and each other, for starters, to find out how God has gifted the body through each individual.</p>
<p>Some are Apostles, some are prophets, some are evangelists, some are pastors and some are teachers (with extra emphasis on some).  We have it all.  To what extent are we encouraging those gifts?  How are we as leaders equipping the gifted?  How is ministry growing from the inside out?</p>
<p>When we begin to dialogue in that direction, I believe we&#8217;ll see dynamic shifts at both the front door and the back.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Thompson</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5740</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5740</guid>
		<description>Balance also comes to my mind, so is that impossible to do?

Five purposes of the church comes to mind also. Is that really realistic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Balance also comes to my mind, so is that impossible to do?</p>
<p>Five purposes of the church comes to mind also. Is that really realistic?</p>
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		<title>By: allen distefano</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5742</link>
		<dc:creator>allen distefano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5742</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t agree more. We&#039;re(the Church) called to exist for people outside our walls. Discipleship, going deeper, maturity, whatever we want to call it is fully realized through Outreach. I&#039;ve always thought the deeper church was the one that was adding disciples. Great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree more. We&#8217;re(the Church) called to exist for people outside our walls. Discipleship, going deeper, maturity, whatever we want to call it is fully realized through Outreach. I&#8217;ve always thought the deeper church was the one that was adding disciples. Great post!</p>
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		<title>By: chuck</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5741</link>
		<dc:creator>chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5741</guid>
		<description>Acts 2 states:
42They devoted themselves to the apostles&#039; teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.... etc

That sounds like a church with a closed back door that is significantly (though not exclusively) focussed on those inside it.

cont&#039;d...47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

So even with a strong focus on the internals, it was impressive enough to people outside of it that they wanted a piece of it and joined in.  People want love and accessible community.  They don&#039;t want to be a target.  Accessibility is huge.

And keep this in mind... some people go through the back door to test Christianity, to see if these folks really do love them.  I&#039;ve run into a number of folks that have been wounded by the fact that they were allowed to exit so easily because to them it meant they were not valued.  That doesn&#039;t mean we pander to people who go through (or are threatening to go through) the back door.  But we do need to be active in showing people inside that we care for and value them so that those inside will want to stay and those outside want a piece of what that church has got.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acts 2 states:<br />
42They devoted themselves to the apostles&#8217; teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer&#8230;. etc</p>
<p>That sounds like a church with a closed back door that is significantly (though not exclusively) focussed on those inside it.</p>
<p>cont&#8217;d&#8230;47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.</p>
<p>So even with a strong focus on the internals, it was impressive enough to people outside of it that they wanted a piece of it and joined in.  People want love and accessible community.  They don&#8217;t want to be a target.  Accessibility is huge.</p>
<p>And keep this in mind&#8230; some people go through the back door to test Christianity, to see if these folks really do love them.  I&#8217;ve run into a number of folks that have been wounded by the fact that they were allowed to exit so easily because to them it meant they were not valued.  That doesn&#8217;t mean we pander to people who go through (or are threatening to go through) the back door.  But we do need to be active in showing people inside that we care for and value them so that those inside will want to stay and those outside want a piece of what that church has got.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Hamer</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5739</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Hamer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5739</guid>
		<description>Just a note, in the original text the great commission the word Go is in the continuous form, so it can be translated; as you go...  There seems to be an assumption that we will go and the focus isn&#039;t enough to be on going, but the only command is MAKE DISCIPLES.  I would like to hear more about New Springs definition of a disciple.  One defintion I have heard is a disciple is someone who makes other disciples, so if this is the case then it seems to be more than leading someone to pray a prayer and become a Christian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a note, in the original text the great commission the word Go is in the continuous form, so it can be translated; as you go&#8230;  There seems to be an assumption that we will go and the focus isn&#8217;t enough to be on going, but the only command is MAKE DISCIPLES.  I would like to hear more about New Springs definition of a disciple.  One defintion I have heard is a disciple is someone who makes other disciples, so if this is the case then it seems to be more than leading someone to pray a prayer and become a Christian.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Cole</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5734</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Cole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5734</guid>
		<description>Here at Lake Pointe, we use the analogy of an airplane&#039;s wings when it comes to outreach vs discipleship.  Would you want to be on a plane with just one wing or with one wing shorter than the other?  While our weekend services are far more focused on reaching new people, we also have a clear and easy pathway that is laid out for people to get connected into smaller group situations.  We take it very seriously and say that the big room is not designed for deep discipleship, our smaller gathering are your church family.  These gatherings produce even smaller groups that build real community and accountability.  Their focus on bible study and fellowship is the key.

Are we totally successful in this area, no.  I do believe we have a solid plan that does work.  Ultimately, people have to desire to be in community or none of this matters.  You can create great situations but people still have to take advantage of them.  Far to  many just go on the weekends and that is all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here at Lake Pointe, we use the analogy of an airplane&#8217;s wings when it comes to outreach vs discipleship.  Would you want to be on a plane with just one wing or with one wing shorter than the other?  While our weekend services are far more focused on reaching new people, we also have a clear and easy pathway that is laid out for people to get connected into smaller group situations.  We take it very seriously and say that the big room is not designed for deep discipleship, our smaller gathering are your church family.  These gatherings produce even smaller groups that build real community and accountability.  Their focus on bible study and fellowship is the key.</p>
<p>Are we totally successful in this area, no.  I do believe we have a solid plan that does work.  Ultimately, people have to desire to be in community or none of this matters.  You can create great situations but people still have to take advantage of them.  Far to  many just go on the weekends and that is all.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Batley</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5738</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Batley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5738</guid>
		<description>Wait a second, as a former staff member with Campus Crusade (11 years) where it was expected that we share our faith personally with someone else about 250x a year we came to find out that those we &quot;win&quot; to Christ will only share their faith consistently, as a lifestyle, to the degree they are rooted and growing in Christ. They can not be separated.

In fact, we found that those who most share their faith as a lifestyle are those who&#039;s lives are growing deeper in maturity and walk with Christ. Should that surprise us though? Real evangelism, lifestyle evangelism is a deeply mature action that involves sacrifice, intentionality and compassion. Actions and attitudes that only come from spiritual maturity. Actions that only come from real, biblical discipleship. They cannot and should not be separated.

You want people to actively share their faith? Have them fall in love more deeply with Christ! New converts have a zeal to tell others. Not unlike when you get a good deal on something at a store and you share that with a friend. But that zeal is not sustainable without discipleship. We experienced that hundreds of times with conversions: great takeoff, great zeal, no lasting walk. Initially sharing with anything that moves, but nothing long term and in many times a falling away. Really sad.

To say that a church is healthier with a primary outward focus gets it just as wrong as saying a church with a primary inward focus is wrong. The two work in synergy! Tandem!

The issue is &quot;making disciples!&quot; The &quot;Going&quot; of the Great Commission is a natural extension. We need to inculcate the fact that &quot;going&quot; is as natural to a maturing xtian life as bible study, small group, worship, etc. Not separate it.

Mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait a second, as a former staff member with Campus Crusade (11 years) where it was expected that we share our faith personally with someone else about 250x a year we came to find out that those we &#8220;win&#8221; to Christ will only share their faith consistently, as a lifestyle, to the degree they are rooted and growing in Christ. They can not be separated.</p>
<p>In fact, we found that those who most share their faith as a lifestyle are those who&#8217;s lives are growing deeper in maturity and walk with Christ. Should that surprise us though? Real evangelism, lifestyle evangelism is a deeply mature action that involves sacrifice, intentionality and compassion. Actions and attitudes that only come from spiritual maturity. Actions that only come from real, biblical discipleship. They cannot and should not be separated.</p>
<p>You want people to actively share their faith? Have them fall in love more deeply with Christ! New converts have a zeal to tell others. Not unlike when you get a good deal on something at a store and you share that with a friend. But that zeal is not sustainable without discipleship. We experienced that hundreds of times with conversions: great takeoff, great zeal, no lasting walk. Initially sharing with anything that moves, but nothing long term and in many times a falling away. Really sad.</p>
<p>To say that a church is healthier with a primary outward focus gets it just as wrong as saying a church with a primary inward focus is wrong. The two work in synergy! Tandem!</p>
<p>The issue is &#8220;making disciples!&#8221; The &#8220;Going&#8221; of the Great Commission is a natural extension. We need to inculcate the fact that &#8220;going&#8221; is as natural to a maturing xtian life as bible study, small group, worship, etc. Not separate it.</p>
<p>Mike</p>
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		<title>By: Steve in Rhode Island</title>
		<link>http://tonymorganlive.com/2008/06/12/closing-the-back-door-part-2/#comment-5737</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve in Rhode Island</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonymorganlive.com/?p=1597#comment-5737</guid>
		<description>Why do we have to focus on either or? Can&#039;t be &quot;experts&quot; in both getting and growing? Is the task of outreach the role of church leadership or the role of the disciples we&#039;re supposed to be making?  Are the people supposed to go or is our &quot;temple&quot; supposed to go?

Are we equipping God&#039;s people to do the work of God or are we enabling them to keep their seats warm? That question is not a critique, but a legitimate question Tony. I know how big blogs like your&#039;s works - you get waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many questions to answer (not counting your Twitter and just plain old email)  - so if you answer that question it would be great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do we have to focus on either or? Can&#8217;t be &#8220;experts&#8221; in both getting and growing? Is the task of outreach the role of church leadership or the role of the disciples we&#8217;re supposed to be making?  Are the people supposed to go or is our &#8220;temple&#8221; supposed to go?</p>
<p>Are we equipping God&#8217;s people to do the work of God or are we enabling them to keep their seats warm? That question is not a critique, but a legitimate question Tony. I know how big blogs like your&#8217;s works &#8211; you get waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many questions to answer (not counting your Twitter and just plain old email)  &#8211; so if you answer that question it would be great.</p>
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