The New Traditional Church

Let me preface this by saying I’m not sure what I think about what I’m about ready to share. I’m still processing. I’m still waiting to hear more from God on this. I haven’t landed.

As best as I can tell as I study churches across the country, here’s how the typical contemporary church asks people to invest their time today:

Participate in Sunday worship services.
Read their Bible.
Become a member of the church.
Attend classes to learn more about the Bible and their spiritual walk.
Participate in a small group with other believers.
Serve in a ministry.
Participate in events and programs that connect believers with others in a similar life stage. (i.e. men, women, married couples, moms, singles, college students, etc.)
Participate in missions efforts either locally or globally.
Invest in people’s lives and invite them to church.

I think that’s a fairly comprehensive list, but you could probably modify that for your specific church and add or delete from the list.

Now, as a result of all this, we see that about 20 to 25% of people end up doing most of the serving at a church. Contemporary churches struggle to get more than 30% of their people engaged in small groups. A very small percentage of people are in the Bible daily. People end up spending a lot of time at the church rather than connecting with people outside the church. We reinforce a consumption mentality that says if you’re going to grow in your faith that the church needs to spoon feed you. People become reliant on the church rather than Jesus for their spiritual maturity.

This is going to sound a little sacriligious, but I’m wondering what would happen if we eliminated some ministries of the contemporary church. What would happen, as an example, if we only asked people to invest their time in this way:

Participate in corporate worship and Bible teaching.
Read your Bible.
Serve others.
Make disciples.

Kind of scary isn’t it? There’s a lot of stuff that we do as churches that’s not on that list. Most of what’s not on that list are the gatherings and activities that bring believers together to learn more. No small groups. No classes. No singles ministry or women’s ministry events. No structured missions programs.

I’m wondering what would happen if rather than focusing so much on transferring knowledge, we focused on helping people love God, love others and make new disciples. What would happen if we asked people to spend less time at the church and more time in the lives of people who need Jesus? What would happen if we offered fewer gatherings to transfer knowledge and more tools to help people study the Bible on their own? What would happen if there was less emphasis on church activities and more emphasis on reaching the world for Jesus?

Maybe groups and classes and ministry programs aren’t the discipleship strategy. Maybe encouraging personal disciplines and serving and making disciples is the discipleship strategy.

Like I said, I’m not sure where I’m going to land on this. I just think some aspects of the contemporary church that we’ve accepted as requirements for “good ministry” are creating barriers to spiritual growth and to the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

In many ways, I think we’re becoming the new traditional church.

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@jasonarredondo

Well put, TY for shairing that.
Matt Beasley

Personally, I think this is a very good strategy for ministry. I would love to see more churches take this approach. Good post Tony!
Bruce

I’m all for equipping the people of God with tools, but like all good apprenticeship programs, one has to have a place to learn how to use them well. How do you propose to help people learn how to make disciples?
http://www.kidsforhim.blogspot.com Fran

Excellent! Thank you!
http://www.brianlusky.com Brian Lusky

I’m with you, I’m just thinking about how this jives with the modern contemporary church that you’ve said yourself should grow and shouldn’t stay small. Part of the problem of gathering with 1000 or more people as your corporate worship experience is that you get lost in the crowd–there’s no accountability.

In the acts church of the 1st century (correct me if I’m wrong), but most people met in small groups in houses as their church, and that afforded them a smaller group of people who would know them personally, and provide them with a sense of community–an important aspect of any Christ-follower’s walk.

What I’m asking is–it seems like we’ve taken one experience and split it into two by asking people to come to church on Sunday and then join a small group. You mentioned small groups above, but not in your picture of a different model–do they fit in the refocused church model you presented? If not, then would a house church model (with multiple small groups under the authority of one group of spiritual shepherds) be more healthy than a gathering of thousands?

I ask because I think you may be right, but I’m not sure how to model the early church effectively without committing my life to a smaller group of people than I worship with on Sunday morning.
http://myspace.com/aylonew Alan Ewing

yes Tony, you’re right, it’s time to break away from the old tradition of buildings and social circles, and look instead to a new tradition of “being out there”, be that through youth disco nights, be that through being alongside people where they are (ie in the middle of the DSS and the attitudes inherent), or be it in cyber-space where many people are escaping to these days…Jesus can be in all of these places…and not just in some kind of comfort zone on certain times on a Sunday (Jesus was never one for comfort zones!)…
http://aldancyspeaks.com Al Dancy

Great thoughts Tony!

I think it makes sense to keep it simple. We can then focus on living for Christ along side other christ followers and among those who dont’ yet.
http://www.reflectlove.com Zane Ellis

I love the idea and completely agree with the model. How do we get there though?
http://www.faithengineer.com Mike Morris

I like the whole idea of a “Simple” church. How many nights away from home do we ask people to commit to? For most churches, you can’t develop friendships outside of the church because you’re at the church every waking minute.

What I struggle with is how much structure is needed to make disciples. I don’t believe that groups and individuals will connect and grow organically. Leadership is still vitally important to create opportunities for people to serve and connect and grow. Leadership also provides accountability. That’s why I think some type of small groups need to be part of the process and plan.

Thanks for the great post. Keep sharing your thoughts on this.
http://www.burnyourgraveclothes.com Chris Hill

This is an excellent topic and I’m sure the comments will start flying in.

When my current pastor was a student ministry pastor, he revealed something that has resonated with me for a while. His strategy for the students, especially when it came to worship, was to present an authentic example of how he worshiped God, not how he thought students would want to worship God.

The plan was not to present “younger” sounding/looking worship style that student would “relate” to. No gimmicks. The plan was to raise the bar and present them with truth and authenticity. Most all of the students were more than willing to come up and meet that bar, and through that, experience real worship of their Creator instead of just going through the motions, being spoon fed, and “feeling good” afterward.

A lot of ministry leaders try and do what’s expected of them by their congregation or they try and guess what certain groups want out of their church experience.

When coming up with new strategies for the church, leaders cannot settle on a program, ministry, or activity that will merely increase numbers or that they think people will respond well to.

The Gospel wasn’t meant to be spoon fed, it was meant to be spread in an inspiring way.

I really believe that most people will rise up to meet what’s expected of them. Do we expect too little from people?

When people’s lives are truly transformed by the Gospel, won’t all those things we call programs or ministries just happen naturally? If we believe the answer is “yes”, then do we expect too little from God?
http://www.joshuawhitehead.net Josh Whitehead

Good post – I think we take responsibility to create environments for the opportunity to make disciples because we don’t know how to teach people to do it effectively. Any thoughts on how to effectively teach people to apply Matt 28:18-20?
Colston

Love the thoughts Tony. The church has become a bee hive for busy worker bees.
I do have a question, where within eliminating activities does the idea of fellowship come in? Understanding that church isnt a holy huddle, but isnt fellowship of other believers vital to the lives? I know Jesus spent ALOT of time with people that needed him, however how much time did he spend with people that already believed in him?
I would like to know your thoughts on the idea of fellowship. The true purpose of it not what it has turned into. Manytimes fellowship has become a socials gossip party catered by the church.
Adam Coates

I’m on board with you on this, man. It’s funny because this is a much simpler way to do things, but it is harder to stick to. We think lack of activity seems like we are doing nothing, creating no buzz. In actuality, this frees people up to build connections with those that aren’t connected and helps us move from the “feeding trough” of religious services and actually use our spiritual gifts. The missing puzzle piece for me is finding an effective way to help people embrace their spiritual gifts.
http://katiewilliams.wordpress.com/ Katie Williams

I hear your heart, and like you aren’t quite sure where to land. What I do know is that we keep our church people so busy that I find it hard to imagine them having time to be in the world reaching others.

But as leaders are we showing or leading them to do otherwise. What do you do outside the church to show people how to make disciples of others? How do you equip and encourage them?
http://www.markriddle.net mark riddle

Tony,
a great post. i appreciate your willingness to post partially formed thoughts.

how about if we cut all of them and added.

Throw parties, share meals, give gifts, make new friends, and tell stories?

that pretty much sums up my church.

thanks man!
Lee Fields

i think you’re right…i’ve landed.
JB

Decentralization. What you just described is the Biblical Model of the church. We are called to be the church, not do church. If we truly lived out the priesthood of all believers and truly believed Eph 4 that church leaders are called to equip, you’d land where you talking about.

The prevelant model today is event…not equip. Staff hired to do ministry while everyone shows up to receive ministry. Not Biblical

Our lame a** “assimiliation” is “let me help you find your spiritual gift, so you can help us do church”. Sad

Why not let assimiliation be…let me help you understand the gospel so you can change the world.

Our motto ought to be just like Home Depot…”you can do it, we are here to help!”

We breed the very problems we hate.

Church leaders don’t dare ask these questions because it should lead to less church jobs and event planners and more disciplemakers
http://joshuablankenship.com/blog Joshua Blankenship

I find it funny that whenever someone mentions “no small groups” the immediate reaction is “but the church in Acts had small groups” as if the only way to model the early church is to *organize* small groups with a specific model (e.g. we read this book, you meet on these nights, we tell you how to be in community, etc.)

I’m fairly certain if you had a church full of people who worshipped together, read their Bibles, served others and made disciples, then you would very naturally have small groups living life together — you just wouldn’t be the one organizing them.
http://ewilkins.blogspot.com Eric

Well put Tony, when you have a better grasp of what’s floating around in your mind let me know! I’m interested in this!
Kyle

Check out “Total Church” by Tim Chester and Steve Timmis:

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Church-Radical-Reshaping-Community/dp/1433502089/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235754653&sr=8-1

My copy is on the way and I’d like to know what you think!
Scooter B

Great Post Tony! I am planting a church this summer, and have been praying and going through all of these questions and more. One of the things we are going to do (not my idea borrowed it from some others) once a month on Sunday we will go into the community and “Worship, Learn, and Teach through serving others”. I am excited to see how this small step will shape our church and become part of our DNA.
http://stepuptothecall.blogspot.com Larry Baxter

There is definitely a lot attractive in what you’re saying, and it’s great to ask such questions. I’m not ready yet to deconstruct the present church and its systems, although I’m open to it if I see God leading us there and if we see abundant fruit in the new paradigm. What you suggest replaces several concrete activities which are too often disconnected from the real goals we want to see, and replaces them with the abstract goals, without specifying the ‘how’.

Looking more closely at what you suggest, the emphasis on several things change, plus the elimination of:
Small groups, classes, serving in church ministry, participating in centrally planned missions projects, and fellowship events, with the goals of serve others and make disciples. It begs the question, how do we serve others and how do we make disciples. If the present activity lists did those well, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. If you mean to leave the ‘how’ unspecified, you have more faith than I do in the ability for people to figure things out and apply them (which may be good, I’m not sure!). Also it seems to ignore the equipping gifts, the benefit of koinonia.

Many who favor simple church would call for the elimination of all of the programs you mention. Others will ignore this suggestion completely. I’m wondering if there is a middle ground where we reduce (not eliminate) the set of in-church activities and inward focus, be a lot more specific and intentional about the aspects of making disciples and serving one another in meaningful ways, and make sure that whatever processes/activities survive are designed well to meet those goals.
Cindy

Interesting. It does appear that we are slipping into the same pattern that some of us grew up with and tried to escape. Really very little has changed except the attire, music and atmosphere. Surface things really. Pretty much the same methods, we just changed the names. I think we have to remember that as long as Satan keeps us busy he keeps us ineffective. We don’t have time for the things that can make an eternal difference. Tight rope for sure. Keep us posted on what God reveals. We can all benefit.
Robert

It’s funny, but every 30 years or so this sounds like a great new idea. It is great but it ain’t new. Good stuff nonetheless!
@richbirch

Hey Tony!

Thanks for all the great posts you do here.

I wonder if the issue is that the list of “tasks” is just woefully “easy and low”. Is participate in corporate worship and Bible teaching, Read your Bible, Serve others and Make disciples the passionate life that Jesus talked about?

stay with me . . . I’m not being a weirdo.

what does “enemy love” and “carrying your cross daily” relate to all this?

thanks again!

Rich
http://www.brianlusky.com Brian Lusky

Re: Joshua Blakenship

the point is–we’re taking two nights of the week to try to accomplish what happened all at once in the acts church model. And our model of big church on Sunday with 1000′s of people is the thing that’s creating that dilemma.

I’m cool with what you described as small groups, but for 99% of people, Sunday morning isn’t that. And if we really want to simplify, maybe it should be. Or not. That’s what I’m asking.

Does stripping the events and demands out of church weekly mean we should be looking to create a corporate worship experience that includes accountability to a few other Christ followers instead of trying to piece that out on different nights of the week. Seems to be counter productive to freeing up our time and talents to reach out and to serve.
http://WEB.MAC.COM/JOURNEYMATT/IWEB M@

We try to approach it as here are three key relationships…God, other followers of God, those that don’t follow God. We provide 4 main venues for these relationships: Sunday Morning, Groups, Volunteering and Invest & Invite.
http://www.burnyourgraveclothes.com Chris Hill

Wait….1000′s of people at a church is a dilemma? That’s news to me and to the people of Acts who met by the 1000′s.

http://tinyurl.com/auscue http://tinyurl.com/bdv29q

When you and your group of 5 or 6 friends who are Christians get together and hang out, do you label it a small group meeting or is it just a natural occurrence?

People talk about what they love. If you are completely in love with God and His Word, wouldn’t you naturally talk about it in your group of friends? Would that be labeled a small group meeting?

If churches are making authentic disciples by simply teaching God’s Word and advancing the message of Jesus in an exciting, authentic, and culturally relevant way, then it wouldn’t have to organize things like small group meetings. Mature, “off the nipple” Christians will make that happen naturally in their daily lives.

I think what happened in Acts (1000′s gathered to hear Peter & John preach then met together on their own in their daily lives) is happening now…..along with too many other things that have intentions of creating community, but actually hinder it.

When strategists talk about the “Acts church model”, the logistics of people groups should be irrelevant. The model should start with the enthusiasm and passion that existed in the movement and the advancement of the message of Jesus.

Does that make sense?
http://theviewfromher.com j a n

I’m wondering if you’ve read either “Simple Church” by Rainer & Geiger, or Dallas Willard’s “The Great Omission.” Both speak to this relatively recent trend towards complexity in the church.

But I suspect we prefer church to be complex because then that requires leadership, and the church is heavily invested in the leadership “industry.” When what we really need to do is teach people how to be better “followers.” Of Jesus.
David Hart

How about de-centralizing along the lines of Moses appointing people responsible for 10s and 100s? Similar to the Methodist (UK) class system suggested by John Wesley? Develop the Shepherds.
Crull Chambless

I don’t think many pastors or church leaders would argue with this logic. Focus expands. This type of intentional missional church Tony describes is ultimately measured by how effective it is at making disciples, not counting how many people are in a discipleship program on Wednesday night. The biggest challenge for today’s contemporary church is actually *how* to get from complexity to simplicity.

I feel too many church leaders allow fear to keep them from leading through complexity.
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Thomas

Tony, I was pointed to your blog from Perry Noble’s blog. I loved this post because you painted a wonderful picture of the church I lead worship at. We meet in a gym, the local community center. We have been for 16 years and don’t plan to change that. We meet every Sunday morning, about 200 of us. We worship God all out, learn more about loving God and others, and then we’re done!

However, you mentioned two great points that I’d like to bring to the table at my congregation: teaching others how to make disciples and teaching others how to study daily.

Bring on the simplicity…
http://www.craigportwood.wordpress.com Craig Portwood

I’ve often thought about the same thing for our church today. The rationale would be that if we don’t offer a vehicle for those things to happen that people won’t engage in disciple making. Of course what you end up with is a group of people who haven’t developed the necessary tools to ‘be the church’ without full guidance. It helps to explain why a generation of people leave the church after high school-they haven’t found someone to spoon feed them. I’ve been focusing a great deal on the equipping & empowering role of being a pastor and I see these thoughts moving in that same direction. The question is-what do we do now and how do we get there?
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http://www.scotthobbs.me Scott Hobbs

Great post! What I see here in the responses is many of us saying “yes!” to less program driven and more “living it” driven church, but asking, “how do we do that?” or, “what does that look like in today’s world?”. I have the same response and questions.

When I was a youth pastor, one of the processes I consistently observed was a kid would come, they would make relationships (with God and other kids), their life would begin to transform, they would begin to live it at home and school, they would bring some of their other friends and family, and the program would reproduce to a certain degree. I think the problem arises (I know I had this problem) when we allow the idea to develop that the appointed service or program time is the only place this can happen. I think it plays a part in it, but I think discipleship is teaching them to reproduce than looking for the “program” to reproduce for them. How do we teach people to get away from the idea “I’ve got to get people to church” and begin to live the idea “I’ve got to be the church where people are”?
http://willohroots.wordpress.com will hapeman

What is described is a movement back to a true New

Testament church.
Chris

I believe it’s backwards. Small groups encourage spiritual formation more than a weekend experience. A model without a small group format wouldn’t be as profitable in making disciples as one with a large weekend experience and no small group. I say if you could only pick one, pick a small group format. Large weekend experiences would risk leaning more toward people having a superstar, self-centered personality.
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Laura Harwood

It’s great to hear someone address this who is in church leadership….I find it interesting to note that not many people failed to mention that not only is this what most churches require but they require it within an already filled week with priorities as great such as a full-time job (40-50hrs/week), spouse, children, extra curricular activities, meeting/spending time with those who don’t know Jesus, general house maintenance and then volunteering at church on top…..it is not possible to do that kind of schedule with excellence…. Something needs to change!
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Chip

Great post Tony. I also am not sure where I stand on this. I come from a Baptist background so I am used to the busy church life. One of the reasons we choseNewspring was because of the relaxed schedule. We didn’t realize it till we where out of the other church but we where so busy with church stuff that it takes away from our time with our heavenly father. I have some concerns with taking it to an even farther level. Since joining Newspring we have not found a small group to bond with and I will say it is like something is missing. My wife recently went through a rather serious surgery and not one person from Newspring even really knows us well enough to even know about it. I guess I have a question about that. What is the churches responibility to its members to minister in a crises? (Death,illness,etc.? Its hard enough to keep up with ministering a small group how would a large church like Newspring do it. Love the site and keep up the good work.
http://davidswatersedge.blogspot.com david

why not small groups instead of corporate gatherings?

consider this. if every family gave a tenth of their income, ten families could support one other family/pastor who would earn the average of their incomes…

churches of 25-20 reading their bibles, serving others, making disciples?
tony

small gatherings may work for some of you. they haven’t been as effective for us. we see far more people receiving Christ, getting baptized and taking steps in their faith as a result of large gatherings. that’s what God is blessing. so we’re going to continue doing it because we don’t want to be disobedient to his vision for our church.

he may have called your church to do something different, though. if that’s the case, you should do what he tells you to do. as long as it continues to bear fruit and people meet jesus and life change happens, that’s a good thing.
http://www.johnhobbs.wordpress.com John Hobbs

Tony – this is great to hear. I believe the Spirit is moving many of His people to this discussion. I would agree with everything you said. However, I would point out that the fundamental problem that has developed and perpetuated a dependency on what you described instead of the Living Lord Jesus is in our understanding of what church is. You said, “What would happen if we asked people to spend less time at the church and more time in the lives of people who need Jesus?” One of our problems is how we tie our understanding of what we do to our flawed understanding of what the church is. In this statement you tie the act of spending time with people who need Jesus with having to go outside of the church. The truth is the building is not the church. His Spirit indwelt followers are. When these people leave the building, the church has left the building. We must renew our understanding to reconnect our soteriology (salvation) with our ecclesiology (church practice). When we see the church as something we go to then we fail to see the real church that lives and breathes and goes where ever we go. This is why most christians have such a dualistic view of life. Sunday is sacred. Monday-Saturday is secular. The church building is where church is. The rest of our spiritual life is optional. When we see we are the church, we then become responsible for being the church all the time, everywhere. Now, how this is going to play out, I’m not sure. I, as a pastor am walking through this. But I’m excited to see so many wrestling with it and renewing their understanding. This I know, my gracious loving Father is able. Blessing Tony. I’m glad to be on the journey with you.
Charlotte

There IS way too much of what I call churchified ‘busy-work’ in contemporary church culture, and it distresses me greatly. When are we supposed to do personal evangelism, or spend time alone in God’s word? Does anyone else crave quiet meditation in their spiritual walk? It seems like everyone is too busy racing from one place to another to ‘Be still… and know that I am God’. Your posting just about sums it up for me – thank you.
John

I like what you’ve said here, and I think these are quality questions that I too have asked of this “new way of doing church.”

I believe that the new church has found itself somewhat disabled by the formality of informality. To put it another way, the contemporary church, in trying to push its own church methods, has slowly taken the “personal” out of a personal relationship with God. The church has become a form of mediator between the people and God–a type of crutch, if you will. This is not effective ministry.

Yes, one could call what I’ve said an exercise in generalities; however, judging by many of the other posts I’ve read on here, I’m not the only one that thinks this way…

The true question lies within the process of enabling people to reach their full potential as followers of Christ, rather than followers of an earthly ministry–a simple concept–ellusive–but simple.
http://maghanlusk.wordpress.com/ Maghan

I love that you said this. I’m reading Bonhoeffer’s “Ethics” right now and the point he keeps hitting on is: what if we focused less on the nature of our faith and more on the nature of our Christ? People who are madly in love with Christ and not madly in love with church are their own discipleship strategy.
http://www.geoffreyjanes.com Geoffrey Janes

Read “The Celtic Way of Evangelism” by George G. Hunter III. Talks about ‘thinning’ out all the ministries and getting back to the basics of discipleship.
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Rick Carter

I find Tony’s ideal church very American, that is, highly centered on the individual. Go to worship, study your Bible. Find a way to serve. Make disciples. It’s a collection of Lone Rangers carrying out the mission.

But God’s mission, in part is to create community, overcoming isolation and alienation through Christ. We can’t make disciples who are redeemed into community unless they encounter the gospel in community.

God’s mission is best carried out in teams because the goal is restored relationships. Redeemed community is the message, and so redeemed communities must be the ones conveying and embodying the message.
http://www.libertyoutreach.blogspot.com/ Brad Brinkley

I think I hear something different than you Rick. I don’t think Tony is suggesting lone ranger christianity… I think he’s talking about personal responsibility and the role of the Holy Spirit in discipleship.

I don’t think it is the churches (the organization) responsibility to organize every activity of my faith walk. At some point it has to be personal to me and led by the Holy Spirit. When that happens I think we grow towards community with other believers not away from it.

I also know that people don’t just wind up where they are supposed to by accident. That’s why God gave us leaders. I think the leadership that it will take to put this kind of movement into action is the hard part.

That kind of culture is what I’m trying to build, and lead, at the church I pastor. The biggest obstacles to that are the established believers… they already have “the new traditional church” mindset. Those who are starting out the way Tony is talking about… they are the ones who are progressing the fastest. They have also been the easiest to move towards community.

It’s on a very small level, but I can already see the potential for exponential payoff of this strategy.

To Tony,
I know you will understand this statement… “systems produce behavior.” I welcome any more thoughts you might have on how to build and lead this kind of system. Thanks.
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Johnathan

I love this post!

It is amazing how much time and effort people put into planning and organizing things (church programs) that God has already planned and organized a long time ago. And He didn’t make it as complicated as we have!! Just read the book of Acts. No programs in Acts…just obedience to God.

If anyone doubts this…watch the last message of “The Gospel” series that Clayton King preached. Clayton did absolutely nothing and I seen God move BIG TIME!!! Hundreds of people responded to God. It wasn’t normal. It wasn’t something that could ever been planned and organized by us….God did it…and he made it SIMPLE!!!
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http://www.worshiptrench.com jordan fowler

To see this all you need to do is study the Church in the East (China, Vietnam, Laos). They are obedience driven discipleship rather than cognitive driven. However, they would differ from your prescription in that cells are the primary gathering point and driving force.

I am not opposed to large churches if they are cell-centric as it allows people to gather around a missional endeavor and leverage in a way that a small cell would not. I have seen this at NorthWood as we leverage our members using their vocations into every domain of society in Vietnam (read Bob’s Roberts Glocalization book with Zondervan). Several of his books have gleanings from the Church in the East.
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http://www.aliveadventuregear.com david

Great questions Tony. We’re on the same path. I’ve been asking these questions for awhile but a 10 year stint in ministry clouded my vision and side-tracked me. 6 years after leaving full-time ministry I’m finally starting to see things a little more clearly again. If you’re interested at all, Wayne Jacobsen has been a great friend along the way. He Loves Me and So You Don’t Want To Go To Church Anymore (books)as well as the podcasts at http://www.thegodjourney.com and articles and teachings at http://www.lifestream.org have been a great help in sorting this stuff out. Time with fellow travellers and time in the woods has also been enormously helpful. Check it out. I’d be interested in your thoughts.
http://rsweetmia Ron Sweet

Great thoughts Tony. I’ve been wrestling with these same thoughts. I think you’re on to something.
Tim Moore

Tony, I have been wrestling with this and I’m in fact preaching on this very same thing through a series called “The Chair” (traditional church vs. missional minded church). We have done all we can to streamline church, simplify it to only a few things. We have seen great growth over the past year and a half as well (albeit not all from that change).

However, we keep running into a situation with new believers (and we have had many in this past year). They are having a hard time learning how to make disciples, read their bibles, etc in this simplified model.

While we promote small groups (sadly about only 30% engage). We offer many times to serve in the community and through the local church. Many of them do…and yet still feel like they are missing community. More so after they gave their life to Christ. Many don’t want to go out drinking with their friends from work, but crave Christian friends to learn from.

We had one single guy who did not believe in Christ but wanted to meet some people & start coming to our church months ago. He sought out a church to find friends. It took several months and he finally confessed his faith in Christ.

But now he struggles, because he doesn’t feel like he has anything for him. (Granted it doesn’t help he is a single and wants to connect with other singles). Even though he understands our non-self centered approach to church, he feels almost like Christian community is almost discouraged (which is NOT true). But that is how the message of a simple missional church is coming across to him.

I guess the real question I have for this idea is “How do you lead people (especially new believers) to read their own Bible and make disciples if you have no clear path (small group or mentorship) to help them do that?” One hour per week in corporate worship/teaching won’t really give them the tools to do that.

Honestly, I love this concept and have been leading our church in this direction (even with kickback from some “churched” people). While it has helped us reach many more, we have encountered other concerns with how we accomplish this with so many baby Christians (without having a small group network or some way to connect them to other Christians they can learn from).

Good thoughts to engage, but I’m not quite sure where I’ve landed either.
http://artgood.tumblr.com Art

I agree with what Rick Carter said above. This seems very “American.” In other countries people travel miles and stay for hours in church worship “services.” In China believers “gather” secretly together. Christians, especially new ones, need to gather together. Sunday worship. Bible studies. Small groups. Sunday school classes. Ministry teams. Whatever. The Bible tells us to come together MORE as we see the day of Christ’s return approaching, not less (Hebrews 10:25). This can be done house to house, or corporately. I mean really, people spend 40+ hours a week at jobs around unchurched people, and probably 4 or 5 hours a week involved in Church-centered activities. I don’t think anyone can really complain about “too much church” when we analyze our time. You want time with unbelievers: don’t watch TV. Invite someone over at meal times. Don’t be a couch potato on Saturday afternoon. Eat lunch with your coworkes… see how easy that is. :)
Bob

Duck and cover folks, the pendulum swings one more time.
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http://www.chadkmiller.com Chad Miller

So with this new paradigm shift there will be less of a need for staff at a church, with more finances available to reach the community. You should read Live Sent, by Jason Dukes. I think he helped me make sense of a lot of this conversation. Thanks for posting this Tony!

Chad
Apex, NC
craig

how about this?

Read your Bible.
Serve others.
Make disciples.

Do it all WITH a small number of people who encourage and challenge each other all along the way. seriously, isn’t there enough great bible teaching out there on through the interwebness?
http://www.colonialheights.org Andy LaValley

I don’t think many church leaders would argue with this reasoning. The biggest challenge for today’s contemporary church is actually how to get from complexity to simplicity.
I think that the leadership of the church are too afraid to make the changes necessary in fear of failure their lack of understanding of really how to actually move from complexity to simplicity.
dan

The nt church met daily and… well had church. They sat under the apostles teaching, worshiped, prayed, and enjoyed fellowship. I’m not sure saying we need to have less church is a good thing. Plus Jesus established the church. The church is Christ’s agent of change in the world. Therefore, to me, to say that people need to become less reliant on the church for spiritual growth is impossible. Wasn’t that at least a part of Jesus’ intention for establishing the church? Good post… i’m just thinking out loud.

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