5 Questions on the 5 Levels of Leadership: An Interview with John Maxwell
John Maxwell
Yesterday, John Maxwell’s newest book, The Five Levels of Leadership, was released. I caught up with John a few days ago and asked him several questions about the book. Here’s our interview. Check out the opportunity to win a free copy at the end of the article.
TONY: What prompted you to write The Five Levels of Leadership?
JOHN: In the early 1980s, I hit a wall in my productivity as a leader. I realized I needed to shift from leading followers to developing leaders. Since leadership is influence, this got me thinking about the nature of influence. What emerged from that study is what I called the 5 Levels of Influence (later renamed 5 Levels of Leadership). And I began using it to help others understand how influence works and begin developing themselves as leaders.
In almost 30 years of teaching 5 Levels of Leadership, it gradually became my most requested lesson. And that demand prompted me to go back and really dig into it, to see if it could be expanded into a book. To my delight, I realized that there was plenty of content, and I could’ve written more about it than I did.
TONY: I know that Jim Collins wrote about “Level 5″ leadership in Good to Great. What did Jim get wrong on this topic?
JOHN: I don’t think he got anything wrong. It’s just a different way of looking at leaders. His level 5 hierarchy is very different from my 5 Levels of Leadership. What he’s really talking about is five levels of contribution or individual growth. And he focuses mostly on his Level 5, but doesn’t really go into the other levels at all. His levels are also not sequential. Bottom line: I think Jim and I just happened to use the same terminology, but it’s a different perspective on the subject.
My 5 levels is not only a picture of leadership, but also the process of how leadership works: How a leader starts with a Position, then has to gain Permission to lead by developing relationships. Then they have to achieve Productivity by getting results with the team. That earns them the credibility to begin People Development so others can reach their potential. Finally, at Level 5, the Pinnacle, they develop leaders who develop leaders.
TONY: Do you think it’s possible for anyone to become a “Level 5″ leader?
JOHN: Anyone? Potentially, yes. In reality, not everyone will reach Level 5. Leadership is difficult. And then it’s very difficult to develop leaders who can lead in their own right. But to develop leaders who can develop others into high level leaders? Very few can do that. It takes skill, focus, and a lifetime devotion to it. Most people would rather produce than produce leaders.
Now, do Level 5 leaders exist? Yes. I can think of a few well-known Level 5 leaders, like Nelson Mandela. Mother Teresa. John Wooden, who I profile in the book.
TONY: What if we see someone on our team that’s stuck in their leadership? What’s our responsibility?
JOHN: If you’re their leader, it’s your responsibility to develop them. But whether you can actually help them grow (Level 4) depends on whether you have worked through the other levels with them. If I’m a positional leader (Level 1) and can see the problem, but have done nothing to gain their permission (Level 2) or achieve productivity with them (Level 3), I won’t be able to help because I won’t have the credibility to speak into their life. If I’m going to help them, I need to earn the influence with them. Otherwise, I may be part of the problem. I might have the desire to help, but not the credibility.
TONY: Talk specifically to church leaders. Why is this topic so important to the future of the Church?
JOHN: Well, the 5 Levels were birthed in a church environment, in part because it’s a volunteer environment. It’s always harder to lead volunteers than staff, because you have to gain influence with them if you expect them to follow. By moving up the levels, a church leader can influence his or her people more and more, and together they can advance the Kingdom.
I appreciate John sharing his thoughts. And, I appreciate his gift to my readers. I have five copies of John’s new book to give away. To participate, you need to live in the United States or Canada. And, if you win, you will need to provide a street address rather than a PO Box for delivery. If you’d like to win one of the five copies, leave a comment on this post. I’ll select the five winners by Friday at 5:00 pm EDT.
UPDATE: The five winners have been selected and will be contacted by email. Thanks for playing!
Good interview — always appreciate John’s insights. Looking forward to reading his new book.
I could list more but a couple quotes that I appreciate and resonate with are…
“Leading followers to developing leaders”
“If you’re their leader, it’s your responsibility to develop them”
Really looking forward to this book. We went through a teaching John did on the 5 levels years ago, and I’ve always thought it was among some of his best content. Thanks for the heads up.
looking forward to reading this book, would love to get it for free. Thanks for interesting insights already and just keeping me informed about it’s release!
I have always been influenced by John Maxwell and his ministry and would love to win a copy of his new book.
Tony,
Great interview. It is great to hear insights shared from John as he is interviewed by someone from such a different generation than his. Thanks for sharing this with all of us readers.
Thanks for passing along the interview, Tony. I appreciate both John’s and your insights on leadership. Thanks for helping to resource ministry leaders. I would love a copy of this book.
Appreciate the interview. Our staff is currently reading through the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership.
Looking forward to reading this book. Heard a quote recently that 95% of leaders have people who follow them. Only 5% of them actually develop leaders. I believe that Leadership Development and Soul Care are probably two of the most prevalent issues we face in the church today. Looking forward to digesting this book on the former.
I would love a copy of this book. I’m just 8 months in to being Lead Pastor and I know this would be helpful for me. In fact, we’re walking through these types of questions right now.
Thank you for interviewing John Maxwell, Tony, and for sharing it with us. Learning how you start at level one and move up and then start developing other leaders using this system has been great. Definitely helpful to see this and read what John had to say.
It’s a bit disconcerting to see where I need to develop in my leadership skills so that I can develop others. Thank you for opening my eyes to some things.
Nice job, Tony. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to reading the book.
Great appetizer! Bring on the feast of meat! Thanks for the heads up about this book. I enjoy books that challenge deeply. And free is my favorite kind of book. :-)
As an Associate Pastor, I couldn’t help but start thinking about how these five levels of leadership directly apply not only to people’s leading, but even to their faith in Christ and needed help in Kingdom building. Hoping I win a copy of this book to pursue the thinking further…
Good interview. Would like to read the book as I’m currently in school to be a pastor.
Great thoughts! Always love reading Maxwell’s Leadership books. Can’t wait to read 5 Levels! Would love a copy of it!
I am starting a new job next week. I really needed to read this today! Thanks!
Great Interview Tony, the statement John makes “Most people would rather produce than produce leaders.” this is such a true statement and worth pondering, what does it mean to leave a legacy of making disciples who make disciples rather than just one generational leadership.”
Great interview. Would love to read this book.
This interview is fascinating. I’d like a copy of the book for us with my local church.
I’ll submit my local street address info at your request.
Thanks for the opportunity to win and read the newest book!
Love John Maxwell! Can’t wait to read this book!
Love Mr. Maxwell and his life’s mission. Looking forward to his new book.
Excited to enter. Hope to win!
Excited to read this book, especially would like to see insight on how to progress to the next levels of leadership….
Thanks for this opportunity Tony! I completely agree with John Maxwell’s last statement regarding leading within a volunteer organization (church). It’s always tougher to lead volunteers because they have no reason to follow unless they believe in you first – then your vision. Without the first component – believing in the leader – one cannot expect to influence to help realize the vision. So, the question is, how do you earn this credibility to be able to influence and make a difference in this world? I’m sure John answers this in his new book. Jim Collins said, “True leadership only exists if people follow when they have the freedom not to.” So true…
Thanks again for the opportunity! I’d love to win a copy of this book to both read and to share with those I serve with. God bless!
Comments! I now have a 20% chance of winning! Thanks for sharing Tony.
Hey Tony, would love a copy of John Maxwell’s new book. I think leadership development is one of the key missing pieces in our current church’s strategy. We’re great at leading followers…but then our leaders turn around every few months and wonder what happened to 30% of their followers…you know what I mean?
Understanding more about Maxwell’s concepts of levels of influence (or leadership…terms are interchangeable, really) I think would be pretty beneficial. I’m in a good spot to influence these kind of organizational changes at NPC.
I have followed John and his books for years. I am familiar with the five levels from some of his other books and am excited about learning more in depth about each one.
When I heard John Maxwell talking about the Five Levels of Leadership at the Chick-Fil-A Leadercast, I was excited because, as he said, that’s what he’s been teaching for the last thirty years. I have great expectations about the profoundness and experience this book will have in inspiring each leader to move towards a new level. I believe this book will help me discover in a better way, where I am and how to grow.
Great interview! I’m excited to read John’s new book read his insights into five level leadership.
Can’t wait to read John’s new book