Several years ago, I discovered Mark Batterson when I was studying churches that were using creative methods for communicating the Gospel in today’s culture. Since that time, Mark has become a well-known writer and speaker. His first book, In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day, is one of my favorite books. In fact, God used it to help me take a leap of faith when I transitioned to NewSpring Church.

Mark’s second book, Wild Goose Chase, comes out in a few days. I recently caught up with Mark for an interview about his new book and his current chase. Here’s a slice of our conversation.

TONY: Given the success of your first book, are you excited or nervous about your new book?

MARK: Wild Goose Chase is the proverbial sophomore album so I’m not gonna lie—it was a very difficult book to write!  But when the last period went on the last page, I really felt like I had written what God wanted me to write. I also prayed over it enough to really believe that it is a divine appointment waiting to happen.  Can’t wait to see the way God uses it.

TONY: Why are you sending us on a wild goose chase?

MARK: Because most people are bored with their faith.  And as Soren Kierkegaard said, boredom is the root of evil.  You cannot live by faith and be bored simultaneously.  I’m hoping Wild Goose Chase will make people uncomfortable with how comfortable they are and invite them into the spiritual adventure of chasing the Wild Goose.

TONY: Isn’t the the concept of a “wild goose chase” contrary to knowing and following God’s will?

MARK: The metaphor for the book actually comes from the Celtic name for the Holy Spirit.  They called him An-Geadh-Glas or the Wild Goose.  At first earshot, it almost sounds a little sacrilegious.  But what a great description of what it’s like to live a Spirit-led life.  All bets are off. You never know who you’ll meet, what you’ll do, or where you’ll go.  And that uncertainty can cause tremendous anxiety.  But it also goes by another name: adventure!

By the way, one myth I try to dispel in the book is this concept that the will of God is an insurance plan.  It’s anything but.  The will of God is a daring plan.  And we’re called to live dangerously for the cause of Christ.

TONY: How are you experiencing the adventure of pursuing God in recent days?

MARK: Leading National Community Church is a tremendous adventure in and of itself.  But on a personal level, one of the ways I’ve tried to adventurize my life is by setting life-goals.  I think most of us don’t get what we want out of life because we don’t know what we want.  And for me, life goals are an expression of faith.  Faith is being sure of what we hope for!  Love to offer a free download called 10 Steps to Setting Life Goals to your blog readers.  It’s available at www.chasethegoose.com.

TONY: Be honest. Aren’t you a little jealous you didn’t write about killing cockroaches instead of chasing geese?

MARK: How about if I stick with the animal kingdom.  You take insects.  And we’ll meet in mammals. I did promise my publisher that my next book will not have an animal in the title!  I’ll let you take over from here!

Wild Goose Chase releases next week. You can pre-order your copy for early shipping on Amazon.

Let me introduce you to Shawn Wood. Shawn is a friend of mine on staff at Seacoast Church in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina. He’s their Experiences and Creative Communications Pastor. Shawn is one of those guys that I like to hang around because he knows his stuff yet he’s humble about it. His first book is about to come out in the next few weeks, so I thought I’d see if he’d be willing to respond to a few questions. Here’s our conversation:

TONY: What’s your story?

SHAWN: In a nutshell, I am a follower of Christ trying my hardest to become more like Him every day.  A husband who loves his high school sweet heart 17 years later more every day.  A father who has been blown away by how much you can love a little princess and an Artist who sees pastoring, leading, writing, my small group and just living life as an act of worship towards a God who saved me when He did not have to.

TONY: Why did you decide to write a book instead of releasing an album?

SHAWN: That is actually a funny question because for most of my life I would have wanted to release an album.  In fact if your peeps at Integrity are interested you can give them my digits.  But the book is simply an outpouring of my story.  Writing a book for me was a chance to share personal stuff that could help others that one recent reader reviewed like this:

“I laughed a lot. I cried a lot. Then I laughed and cried some more.” –Shawn’s Mom

TONY: What’s the book about and what do pomegranates have to do with anything?

SHAWN: You are an Artist.  That would be the one floor elevator pitch for what I hope people would gain from this book.  If I had a few more minutes my hope is that people will realize that God is not waiting on them to become something they are not so they can do things they were never called to do, but that instead they will be the artist God has created them to be and do the things that they were uniquely created to do.

As far as Pomegranates, I actually heard a message in the early 1990’s that taught about the “lily work” and “pomegranates” that were carved into the tops of the columns at Solomon’s temple. It was one of those messages that just stuck like a good bowl of cheese grits. I have always had a bent towards the arts through music, design and building – my dad is a metal artisan so it just seemed to resonate with me. Then one day it hit me. This guys carved this stuff not as “art” but as worship. Art is usually viewed by people, but this stuff was 30 something feet in the air and no one would see it. I realized at that moment that we all have something to carve towards an audience of one.  I also thought that the inside of the Pomegranate looked like corn and I really like corn.

TONY: Does Greg Surratt eat pomegranates?

SHAWN: I actually experienced my first pomegranate at a message planning meeting with Greg at Seacoast a couple of years ago. I thought it was an onion. We were looking at the symbolism behind the pomegranate in scripture and most of us around the table had never actually eaten one so we had one as a sample and I did see Greg eat some.  For some reason the old testament dudes really liked them…I think it’s because they did not have Starbucks.

TONY: If you could hire anyone to be on your staff, who would you hire and why?

SHAWN: Barton Damer.  The dude lives the essence of an artist who carves pomegranates to God with his motion graphics work.  He is sick (I think that’s what the kids would say).  I am so honored to be working with him on some stuff now for Seacoast and to meet him in a few weeks at the ECHO conference in Dallas.  I would also hire you of course, but then you would probably have to fire me or something and it would get weird.

Shawn’s book, 200 Pomegranates and an Audience of One, officially releases on September 1. Here’s a sample chapter of the book, but go ahead an pre-order your copy today.

I caught up earlier today with Seth Godin. My friends at Catalyst hooked me up with an invitation to try out Seth’s new online gathering at triiibes.com. The site is for people who want to lead a tribe and make something happen. It’s by invitation only until October. (Sorry blog peeps.) All of that prompted some questions for Seth.

TONY: First of all, thanks for being my friend on Triiibes.com. I would have been lonely without you. But, since we’re now friends, what makes a good friend…online or otherwise?

SETH: I don’t think “friends” on Facebook and such are really friends. They are mild forms of permission, people who are willing to say, “no, you’re not in my spam folder.” True friends online are people who give before they get. And they’re hard to find!

TONY: I’ve started playing around with Triiibes.com today. It’s invite-only right now, but, on its surface, it looks a lot like several other social-networking sites including LinkedIn and Facebook. What’s the difference?

SETH: The key difference is that I’m trying to build a place where people are talking about ideas, not about each other. That’s a huge shift.

A tribe is not a crowd. A tribe is a group of people with a connection, a purpose and a leader. A key element of a tribe caring about an idea.

TONY: Thanks for agreeing to speak at Catalyst in October. Here’s a dirty little secret…we church leaders think we know a lot about “community” but more and more people are choosing to opt out of our communities. Why do you think that’s happening?

SETH: I worry that we’re confusing faith and religion, and I worry that we may be willing to sacrifice community in exchange for fealty to traditional rules. Faith is never going to go out of style, and community is more important than ever. It’s just got to be relevant.

TONY: Be honest. What scares you most about speaking to a group of church leaders? (Just between you and me, they kind of freak me out.)

SETH: I don’t like offending people, and it’s easy to offend people when you don’t know as much as they do. This group knows more about what it takes to lead in this way than I ever will. My goal is to push people, but I need to do it from a place of respect. I hope that will come across.

TONY: Just give us a nugget. What’s one surprise we’ll find in your new book?

SETH: Well, I just gave you one. I think faith is critical. I’m not so crazy about religion if it gets in the way of faith.

You can follow Seth daily on his blog. Smart people will also pre-order his newest book, Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us, which comes out in October. And even smarter people will register for Catalyst to hear Seth live and in-person before August 28. That’s when the “sweet deals” end.

See you at Catalyst.

TONY: I don’t ever want to be considered a "bozo." What’s your best advice for avoiding bozosity?

GUY: Give them one good shot. If they don’t get it, then move on. Life, even eternal life, is too short. Honestly, I know this is true in business. It might not be so true in your business.

TONY: What’s a recent learning that has rocked your world?

GUY: Nothing too radical here. I learned how much I love my kids if that counts.

TONY: I don’t own an Apple computer. I feel like I’m missing out. Am I?

GUY: This is like me asking you, "I don’t believe in God. Am I missing out?"

TONY: I have friends that stand up in pulpits every weekend and teach. Can you help them by explaining your 10/20/30 rules of PowerPoint?

GUY: The crux is that a PowerPoint user should use ten slides in twenty minutes and use a large (30 point) font. Now most ministers don’t use PowerPoint, but the message is the same: keep it short and sweet.

TONY: You call yourself an evangelist. In your mind, what makes a good evangelist?

GUY: 90% is having a good cause. It’s very easy to evangelize a good cause. It’s hard to evangelize crap. (you can substitute "junk" for crap if you need to)

Guy Kawasaki made a name for himself at Apple Computer where he was on a team that was responsible for marketing the Macintosh. He’s a Silicon Valley venture capitalist, and he’s noted for bringing the concept of evangelism to high-tech business. Guy is currently the CEO of Garage Technology Ventures, a venture capital firm which specializes in high-technology startup firms located in Silicon Valley, California. More importantly, he frequently share his thoughts on his blog: Signal Without Noise.

TONY: Has anyone told you that you draw great pictures on your blog? Why do the pictures capture my attention?

KATHY: Brains have been getting information from visuals for, well, waaaaaay longer than they’ve been processing words–pictures usually are worth 1,000 words. Our brains are tuned to pay attention to images… after all, a change in light and shadow might be a tiger!

TONY: What’s a recent learning that has rocked your world?

KATHY: Most of us know from experience that being around people with a strong emotion has an influence on our own emotions, but scientists have finally begun to understand why. The discovery of “mirror neurons” shows that our brains are wired to mimic others around us, and the phenomenon of “emotional contagion” (where an angry person can spark anger in those around him, with anger propagating like a virus throughout a group) is extremely difficult to resist. Your mother might have told you to have good role models or to stay away from someone who was a “bad influence”, and now the neuroscientists are backing her up. In my own world, that means being more aware and careful to not get caught up when I’m around those who are bitter, cynical, chronically angry, etc. and choosing to spend more time around those who have the outlook I want to have–optimistic, enthusiastic, and caring.

TONY: What’s your favorite blog?

KATHY: (I can’t give you just one) The most consistently helpful for me personally are 43 Folders, 37 Signals, and Seth’s blog.

TONY: Churches are historically known for risk-aversion. How do you challenge those that are afraid of change? Or, is innovation overrated?

KATHY: A quote I heard once is that people aren’t necessarily afraid of change… they’re afraid of being changed. And the only way to help overcome that out-of-my-control feeling is to be proactive… to innovate and initiate change. Alan Kay, one of the earliest inventors of the graphical user interface, said, “The best way to predict the future is to invent it.” When I meet with people who resist change, I try to help them work on creativity and the ability to both learn and unlearn as quickly as possible. The rate of change keeps increasing, and… the future is not optional.

TONY: Creating passionate users. Why do people become passionate about using a product or service? How do we help people maintain that passion?

KATHY: When you look at things people are truly passionate about, you always find learning and growth and improvement… we’re always trying to gain more knowledge and skill around the thing we’re passionate about, because being better is better! When we’re better at something, experiences become richer, deeper, and more rewarding when we have the knowledge and skill to meet a challenge we believe is meaningful, whether it’s playing great golf, listening to (and appreciating) classical music, or becoming involved in a cause we care about. To answer your first question, people become passionate about a product or service because that product or service (or the company who provides it) helps them get really GOOD at something, so they can have that richer, more meaningful experience.

We can help people maintain that passion by continuing to help them grow, by offering new challenges and opportunities to both acquire more knowledge and skill and experience. Also, people with a passion want to connect with others who share that passion, so anything we can do to support and encourage “affinity groups” is a tremendous help. People who feel more alone in their passion are often those who don’t have anyone to share it with. Another thing we can do is help them find ways to introduce other people in their life to the thing they’re passionate about. They WANT to evangelize, but they don’t always have the tools, and the most important people in their lives are the ones they most want to “get” why they have this passion.

Kathy Sierra has been interested in the brain and artificial intelligence since her days as a game developer (Virgin, Amblin’, MGM). She is the co-creator of the bestselling Head First series (named to the Amazon Top Ten Editors Choice Computer Books for 2003 and 2004). You can catch more from Kathy on her Creating Passionate Users blog…one of my favorites.

Tony:  Seen any new "purple cows" that we should know about?

Seth:  Actually, we’re seeing more every single day. Which means that the bar is being raised, that it’s harder than it was to do something people are willing to take a minute or two to check it out.

Tony:  What’s a recent learning that has rocked your world?

Seth:  The number of books read every year by the average adult in the US is less than 2. Two! Where is our information coming from? Does it matter that people don’t read books or newspapers?

Tony:  What’s your favorite blog to follow?

Seth:  I follow ideas more than blogs…

Tony:  Do you think marketing should be important for churches?

Seth:  Nearly everyone who markets something suffers from the following conceit: other people do marketing, but my product is so amazing and magical and important that marketing isn’t necessary.

Nowhere is this idea easier to embrace than in a church. After all, marketing seems contrived or selfish or callous. If you really and truly believe that your faith is the one and only right faith, how dare you market!

But I don’t think the "one and only right faith" is accurate. No one is particularly chosen or blessed or better. A look at history makes that really clear. So you need to get over that if you’re going to grow.

So, yes, if you want to grow, you need to market.

Tony:  Small is the New Big…what’s one small thought from the book that could make a big impact for church leaders?

Seth:  I have no business at all telling church leaders much of anything. I hope they’ll find a nugget that resonates, especially if their goal is to spread kindness and openness. We need more of that.

For more Seth Godin, check out his newest book, Small is the New Big, or you can catch him daily on his blog. (By the way if you teach, make sure you read this post from Seth’s blog.)

We’re going to start a new series on the blog next week. I’m really excited about this. I’ve started connecting with some cool people outside of ministry to encourage them to share their story. In the process, I’m also asking for their perspective about how those of us inside the church can grow our leadership and our impact.

These aren’t church people. They are normal people. That means you’re going to hear unfiltered thoughts. Some of us have been on the inside of ministry for so long, we’ve forgotten how the real world thinks. That perspective will be helpful for us as we try to connect with today’s culture, and I think we’re going to learn some incredible leadership lessons along the way as well.

Check back on Tuesday for the first guest. I think you’ve heard of him. He’s still discovering purple cows.