Growth Barriers. Every Church Hits Them.
In a recent webinar, I hosted a conversation with leaders from several very large churches about breaking barriers.
In the second part of this conversation, you’ll learn about common multisite model missteps and how they set you back, as well as the all too frequent issue of “complexity creep” that can undermine your vision. There is also a candid Q&A time at the end of our talk.
In this conversation, we discuss:
Launching too small
Toxic multisite cultures
How complexity gets large churches stuck
The principle of pruning
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Do you have any additional questions for Tony, Amy, Chad, and Matthew? Comment or share with us on social media using #unstuckchurch.
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Tony Morgan: Welcome to the unstuck church podcast. Again, I’m Tony Morgan and each week we share conversation about getting churches unstuck. Today is part two of our discussion on reaching 2000 and beyond, and just because this content was designed for larger churches doesn’t mean the principals won’t apply to everybody that’s listening today. Joining me will be Amy Anderson, the director of consulting from the unstuck group, Chad Moore the lead pastor of Sun Valley Community Church in Phoenix and Matthew Court, the lead pastor or a friend’s church and Yorba Linda, California. We’re going to be talking about two topics from a recent Webinar, multi-site model missteps, and how they set you back, and then secondly, complexity creep and why it’s undermining or revision. Now, remember, this was recorded during a Webinar, so the audio isn’t quite the same quality that you’re normally experiencing on our podcast, but do hang in there because the content will be helpful for churches, particularly large ones that are trying to break through growth barriers. Now, let’s listen to the second part of our discussion. The third,
Tony Morgan: a key area that we wanted to focus on is multi-site model missteps. Um, the key question we’re going to look at here are what are the most common multi-site missteps and how do they slow you down? And Amy, AH, again, you have a lot of experience through the years in multi-site church from your days at Eaglebrook and uh, you’re married to a campus pastor, so that keeps you in the game, I’m guessing, uh, we often say at the onset group so that multi-site is not a growth strategy. It’s an evangelism strategy. And can you expound on that?
Amy Anderson: Yeah, I think one of our principles with multi-site is that you replicate who you are. So if you are not a thriving growing church right now, multi-site will not turn you into a high momentum thriving healthy church because you launch who you are and that’s where it comes out of it. Um, you should go multi-site because you have to. And I would say you have to because you’re out of room, you’re out of space or you’ve just got this crystal clear calling that God’s calling you to do it. So, um, why it’s an evangelism strategy is that you’re putting on campuses where people already are. But it’s closer to them so that they can invite their family and friends to church because we find that while we love our church and we’ll drive 25 minutes, those that we’re inviting, that feels like a pretty long trip just to go to church. So once you’ve got that health and you’ve got the momentum and you’ve got a good cluster of people in an area becomes an evangelistic strategy to reach more people because you’ve got a critical mass there.
Tony Morgan: That’s good. A Chad. I’ll tell you, to work with all kinds. Multi-Site churches in Sun Valley has figured something out that through the years I would probably admit you’ve made some mistakes along the way that’s helped you get where you are, but you’re doing a lot right when it comes to multi site. So can you give us some of those insights that you’ve picked up through the years as you’ve moved from a single location church to six locations?
Chad Moore: Yeah, and I appreciate the encouragement. We’ve paid a lot of dumb tax. We still are, I think. I think in some ways I’m a totally agree with what Amy said. The best reason to do multi-sites because you have to, um, and so a lot of it is figuring out who you are and then really making sure you’re replicating who you are. A couple of quick things, um, if you put a campus pastor at another campus, have them with you at least a year before you make them a campus pastor in your church, uh, because you want to replicate who you are and they don’t know who you are if they’re new. Um, and so you want to be kind of up close over time with your campus pastors. Uh, in our environment. I really want him to be an extension of me, uh, not my gifting, um, or wiring necessarily, but heart values, those kinds of things.
Chad Moore: And so I’m responsible for the air war side of ministry, kind of the come and see, follow me of what Jesus did and they’re responsible for the ground war, be with me, remain in me. They get people in the life of the church. So, uh, to be really blunt with it, you know, our jobs to kind of get them there. That’s the weekend team. And it’s the campus pastors job to keep them there, uh, and get them in the life of the church, but you really want that campus faster, uh, to reflect who you are and what you’re trying to replicate. So make sure they’re with you for a time before you give them the ball.
Tony Morgan: That’s good. Amy. Ah, again, lots of opportunities here. And uh, it’s, it’s, it, it really is amazing. I mean, almost every larger church, uh, that we’re working with now has already moved to multi-site or they’re talking about it. Uh, but through that, you and I have learned some missteps along the way that churches make when it comes to their multi-site strategy. Would you mind sharing some common things that we’re finding?
Amy Anderson: Uh, one of the common ones is what I just kind of alluded to. They will punch too small, you know, they’ve got a lot of energy. Um, it’s got a feel and a vibe and they launch, you know, way too small and the church doesn’t get that same feeling. They are, you know when we’re talking about replicating who we are, but if it’s too small it doesn’t have the feel of that sending church and if it’s too small then it can start to take on a small church mindset pretty quick. Um, and then you don’t have a big core big enough to serve. You don’t have a big enough cohort to give. And so it limits growth because it just, it never really gets on its feet. It’s just too small.
Tony Morgan: Yeah. Let me just jump into a. because I have both seen this in churches. We’ve, and you don’t hear these stories a lot of times, but we’ve had to process with several churches closing down multisite campuses because they launched too small, so I can’t overemphasize what Amy’s talking about here. You’d need to, you need to start larger. In fact, they think leadership network just shared some recent information through some research that they’ve done and they actually surveyed a number hundreds of multi-site churches and the consistent theme they heard from those churches is we wish we would’ve watched larger. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.
Amy Anderson: Now. It’s good. I think the second thing is a common misstep is they don’t clarify decision making early in the process. There’s so much to all of a sudden about do I get to make that decision as a campus? Does the central team make that decision? And so again, all decisions start going all the way up the food chain. People aren’t empowered to lead and get done, so it wastes a lot of time and it creates a lot of toxicity again in the culture because I thought I could make that call. Um, they hire too many people so they launch a campus and they think they can staff it at a certain level and all of a sudden they’re just bleeding financially because not only did they launch it with too many staff, but they probably launched it with staff who are wired to do stuff again versus lead and equip.
Amy Anderson: Um, another common one and this one might be a little dicey, but this is what I see. They, they launched with live teachers. So they put a second campus or third campus out and it’s easy at first to just find another teacher and let them teach. But if you play that movie forward, um, it has the impact that, that it’s not always thought through when they make that decision. Meaning, you know, you can kind of tell with Chad, Matthew, there’s, there, they’re the lead pastor at the church. They teach, they set a culture at their church and when you have different people teaching at different locations, as much as you try to move all together, eventually those churches really take on the personality of that, that leader that’s teaching. And by the way, that’s not a bad thing. Um, you know, the kingdom still winds with these churches.
Amy Anderson: However, I’ve seen it too many times where that wasn’t there. You want it to be one church, multiple locations. And they were hanging on the efficiencies that are going to gain, you know, through all the central services. They just, they thought they were going to be a multi-site church, but really what they ended up being, we’re separate churches in the end because that’s sort of where those churches go when you go with l, a live teacher in each location. So I’m not saying you can’t do it, but it’s not a true multi-site. When you look at all the other factors in success, things that are attached. Multi-Site, can I just add one more? So I think the other common misstep is that they launch, um, they, they decide this is what we’re going to launch to this campus and the descending campus still keeps all of their other programmings in place.
Amy Anderson: Um, and I’ll say that because there a large church I worked with and it had been just, it’s almost like this big because they had been in existence one location for years and they had so many things that they offer to their congregation. They launched a multi-site, but honestly that multi-site felt nothing like the original sending campus because they paired it down without pairing down the main campus at the same time. He’d say mean but sending campus. And so it ended up with, it was just a misstep and it took a long time for that multi-site to get some traction. So how all that limits growth, those decisions, a lot of them are tied to finances like financial, you get strapped and um, you can’t afford your multi-site strategy. Culture gets toxic, especially like I said, when it goes back to decision rights. And then with all that complexity, um, staff will revert going back to doing things instead of leading things. So
Matthew Cork: that’s good to go on. But yeah, I know lots of great learning. You mentioned you have three locations and are moving forward with a fourth. Um, how, when, when, how long ago was your second location? Launched a, it was about, uh, two years ago. Yeah. So different model. So, and in not to disagree with amy and even look at it, we have a value that is called deliberate apprenticeship in part of my job now is to, to apprentice and develop the next generation. The other thing is we’re very clear on why we’re planting campuses. We’re planting campuses not to have another venue somewhere. We’re buying on campuses or in evangelism strategy to win people to Jesus Christ and ultimately expand the kingdom. We believe that our campuses will be around three to five years and then they actually will become a separate church. We have 10 campuses are going to be launched, uh, in the next 10 years is our plan.
Matthew Cork: And so when we go in, we do live teaching, but I teach at the other campus. We do video probably 15 to 20 percent of the time and that’s on shared vision things and other things. But I have live teachers, but what has been happening here for 13 years is we’ve had a teaching team for 13 years. So what happens here, I’m in the pulpit twice a month at the main campus, central campus. So the sending campus only sees me twice a month. So when I go over and I’m only twice a month at the other campus is, they’re used to that already. And then I have now for teachers and so between the three campuses we rotate. I was just, I just spoke at our orange campus two weeks ago. I was there last week participating in their capital campaign and watching and looking at the excitement of their building being done.
Matthew Cork: It can work is complicated and she is absolutely right. Our church has a hundred and five years old and what you guys come it came in and helped us do is we had already paired down when I took over lots and lots of ministries, but we made sure that on our campuses we had a pathway. The pathway had to happen at the Sydney campus and things had to go away and so we have eliminated so many things to start this model than to take the kingdom outside of our four walls. But the pathway key and as we worked on that pathway, we’re very clear on who we are and who we’re not now at our sending campus and it has paid off in great dividends for the campuses. We have already and now. Now. Now we believe we’re prepared and that’s why we took a little bit of time and waited for the next campus because we needed to make sure yours and all that we’ve done was made sure we were doing this right and honestly we had to get rid of some things and you guys came in and helped us even kind of shaped a ourselves better to create the next campuses that are coming online.
Tony Morgan: And that’s a great segway to our final topic today, which is complexity theory. And the key question that we want to try to answer today is how does complexity undermine the vision of your church? A. Amy, again, this, I’m going to put you on the spot. This is kind of a delicate topic, but um, first of all, can you share some real church examples of how complexity can get a large church stuck
Amy Anderson: well without sharing names, right?
Tony Morgan: That’s right. Protect the innocent here. Friends, church,
Amy Anderson: we’ll call it friends. Church. Well, again,
Amy Anderson: it probably sounds like I’m repeating myself a little bit, but you know, churches that are trying to break the [inaudible]barrier already a large church. Right? And there’s probably lots of stuff going on and so you’ve been adding things over the years as your church got larger. And uh, this church I was just working with, they hadn’t stopped anything and so it was nothing ever. No ministry ever had a funeral for itself because we just kept adding. And by the way, there’s people who love those things. I mean if you ask, there’s always someone who likes something that you’re doing, but this is the reason that they’re stuck because it’s Kinda like if you go to the cheesecake factory and you want to have a meal and you look at that menu and there’s just so many choices, what do you want to know? What you want to have clarity on that, right?
Amy Anderson: So the, their discipleship path or what next step should be. There are so many things going on in the church. They’re stuck because they’re afraid to prune and they’re afraid to get rid of things because then people will be upset and then maybe people will leave. And that’s not gonna help. If they want to know those are typically, they feel a little tired because of the givers tenders and so all that complexity, even in what you offer on the weekend can, can cause you to stay stuck. So again, uh, worked with the church that has two different types of services. One is kind of a blended one, we can call blended. Um, and the other one is kind of a more modern, what kind of relevant experience and the building looks half traditional and half pointed. The people who attend those services look half traditional. I mean blended and half.
Amy Anderson: I mean it’s just, it’s like two churches under one roof. And I get it when churches say, well, it’s choices then people have choices on know what they want to do with church, but I just think it adds a lot of confusion because what churches at what church are you inviting to? What’s your, an outsider experience when they come in? How do we even brand our church? Um, if we want to really get our people fired up to be inviting people to church. And I say that because, you know, I invited, if I invite someone to church, they probably aren’t coming that weekend, but I want to keep that invitation going will show up any weekend and hopefully have a great experience. But when you’ve got all the different service styles, uh, then you’ve got to kind of be really specific on what time they go and where they go and what feels like choice really isn’t choice because then typically you’ve only got that one service time that you, that you’re able to go to church at that time. So all that to say those, the complexity of things, you cannot be nimble. You can’t clearly identify kind of who you are and next steps that people need to take. And undoing that just takes a lot of hard work.
Tony Morgan: Even going back to my days in ministry and certainly now even with the unstuck group, I’ve noticed that the natural gravitational pull is not toward simplicity this toward complexity. And I have to imagine even as your church grows into the thousands, that that gravitational pull probably get stronger, doesn’t it? So how do you, how do you address that?
Chad Moore: Yeah, well you have more and more people so people have more and more ideas on, on what you should be doing, what you want to be doing. And a lot of those ideas are good. They’re just traditional. Great. Um, I think in our conversation earlier I mentioned, I, I try to make myself continually think like a church planter, which means why did we start this church? Um, how did we get to where we are? And even though we’re larger, we want to still think like a church because church plants reach people, more people are going to give their lives to Jesus and a church plant, you know, all those kinds of things in that mindset. There’s an intentionality to that. I mean, if you don’t get people in the church plant, the church plant doesn’t survive, right? Um, and so we just try to constantly think about why are we here, what are we trying to do? And try and have that church plant mentality, which is kind of lean and mean. We’re trying to reach people for Jesus, get them into the family. Uh, and to see that happen more and more so just trying to think that way and whoever the leader is, it’s their job to keep everybody on track with that because that vision that cause why you got into it leaks. Um, and so you constantly have to be disciplined and to stay focused in the right direction.
Amy Anderson: Maybe before you ask the next question, complexity is a sign that a church has slipped into the maintenance phase of the church life cycle, right? How, how do you lead people through the pruning process? You know, what is, what do you have them think about and consider
Tony Morgan: piggyback on, first of all, on something that I chatted to share it. You really do have to go back to the to answer the question, why, why do we do church? And um, that’s where the conversation has to begin. In fact, I, I share with folks all the time why we do church has to be more important than the way we do church. And until we get to that and back to that place where, why we do church is more important than the way we do church. It’s going to be difficult to, to Russell the complexity creep down after that, after we come to that agreement, then the church does have to, as, as a beginning to creating a framework, identify what is our mission, where are we going in the future and how are we going to get there? And a part of the reason why churches have complexity is they’ve never defined that they’ve never defined specifically, this is where we believe God’s calling us and this is specifically how we intend to get there.
Tony Morgan: And I think a large part of that, how question is, uh, amy, you and I have actually talked about this in the past. We call them growth engines for churches and particularly for churches trying to reach 2000, you have to identify your core growth engines. And when we talk about growth engines were talking both about numerical growth. We want churches to be impacting more people’s lives, but we also are talking about spiritual growth. We want more people taking their next steps toward Christ. And what I’ve, what I’ve learned is churches have to get focused on three or four, but no more core growth engines of the church and really begin to resource with leadership and volunteer engagement and financial resources, communications focus, have to get, have to get a momentum around those growth engines if they’re gonna, move out of the complexity that they’re experience.
Tony Morgan: And then amy, finally, I will say it is a biblical principle. Pruning is a biblical principle. And the odd thing is businesses use pruning all the time to get focused in their business and to get momentum around whatever their core products and services. Our churches should own the pruning principle, but rarely implement it. We, we have to get back to leveraging that biblical principle. And you know, from scripture, it’s not just cutting back the dead. We actually periodically have to cut back healthy branches for the plant, in our case, for the church to be thriving and healthy. And so we have to go back to doing what the Bible said. We shouldn’t be doing that. If we’re going to battle the complexity creeps and then eventually returned to sustain health. Uh, I tend to get on a soapbox when I start talking about that, but I do want to get a qna here before we jump to q and a, a few reminders.
Tony Morgan: First of all, we have starting later this spring, a couple of coaching wells, actually several coaching networks through the unstuck group to have them around unstuck church and also multi-site are going to be hosted both in Atlanta and in Dallas, Texas. And so if you want to engage with amy and myself and a couple other folks from the unstuck group team, highly encourage you to get to the website, the unstuck group.com and sign up participate. We’ve had hundreds of leaders go through those coaching networks in the past and hugely valuable to the churches that have experienced those. And then today we touched on multi site and that is part of what we do at the unstuck group. We have, I think, close that now, 15 years of experience in multi-site at the end on the unstuck group team, and we’re helping churches of all different sizes, but particularly churches like yours, trying to reach 2000 beyond begin to shape a multi-site strategy so that hopefully, uh, Chad referred to as the dumb tax so you don’t have to pay the dumb tax so you can actually learn from the mistakes that we’ve made in the past and help help you launch multi-site with strength.
Tony Morgan: So let’s jump to the questions here. Uh, mark has been feverishly relaying these questions to me. We’re going to start with culture first. A, Matt, Matthew, uh, excuse me, matthew. Um, this one is for you. How do you get a. So you are the lead pastor, but the person that’s asking this question is not obviously. So the question is this, how do you get your lead pastor to open his or her life, especially if they’re not a people person?
Matthew Cork: Here’s what I would say. Uh, there are people in, in, in my life, uh, and they use it a lot. I know you’re too busy or I know you don’t have time or I know this and I would just say I, I, I think that really isn’t true. I am busy, but if one of my staff members looked at me and say, Hey, can I take you to lunch? And I would say for a leader, if you want to speak into your leader’s life, take them to lunch and know what you want to say. I have three questions that you want to know. Well, it could be personal. One could be leadership, light them up and what lights them up. Their family probably lights him up. You just might not know it because they might not be approached. People. Person their job hopefully lights them up.
Matthew Cork: What is it? And it has three questions and then after you get those questions answers, you’ve started a conversation and then say, Hey, do you mind maybe next month or if that’s too much, maybe the month after that, can I, can I take you out again? Because I love learning and a couple of my people have done that because their people, so they love hindfoot. They know I like going into launch, so they’ll take me to lunch at my favorite restaurant, but I always tell them, hey, be prepared because I do have half an hour and I’d love to give it to you, but I’m just not going to hang out. I got something else going on, so I think invite them in to your life, but be prepared and ask questions. Have your questions ready for them.
Tony Morgan: That’s good. That’s good. Chad, this one’s for you, uh, you mentioned shifting roles from generalist to specialist. Can you give some examples of those specialist roles that you added through the years?
Chad Moore: Yeah. Yeah, so I’m probably the easiest example. So our executive team now is five people, including myself. Uh, the other four, the executive team were all executive pastors at large churches when they came on our team, uh, we put them in their specialized niche. In other words, one was really good at hr accounting, construction projects. He’s in charge of the business. A one did all that but was really great at managing weekend services and production. So that’s what he’s in charge of. Uh, so it’s just thinking through, um, as the, as the bandwidth, you know, increases, uh, who’s the best at what? Well, let’s, let’s just put them in charge of what they’re best at. Um, and then to a point that was mentioned earlier, just talking about complexity in that creek at the regular practice that I go through, I feel like now it’s like every six months is what am I going to stop doing?
Chad Moore: Um, because there are other people who do it better than me and I’m just in the way, you know, I don’t want to be with a cork in the bottle. So I think you just think through who’s the best at what, um, and, and you let people be in the niche that they’re in. Sometimes that gets difficult because you’ve got to hire over people or move somebody around. And just because somebody is passionate about something doesn’t mean that they’re good at it, you know, uh, they may just be passionately crappy at it, so you have to navigate people through that. Um, but yeah, you know, the gas, the game changes, you don’t want alignment. Uh, you know, being the wide receiver, you want a certain kind of person that needs a certain competition to do that. So you just think through it differently as it gets bigger and the gang changes. So yeah,
Tony Morgan: that’s good. Amy, this one’s for you because you mentioned distinguishing as the church gets larger doers from equippers or doers from developers, we can use different language as you’re trying to discern whether or not this is the right person for a leadership role. Are there questions that you should be asking on the front end of that selection process? Are there things that you should be looking for? How can we make sure we’re actually hiring
Tony Morgan: developers are equippers rather than doers for leadership positions?
Amy Anderson: The great question, I wish there was a silver bullet for it, but ask behavioral based questions. Um, if it’s someone outside your organization,
Amy Anderson: you want to make sure that they’re a proven builder.
Amy Anderson: Um, and so listen, ask questions that allow you to listen for how they approach problem solving, how they engage other people in different solutions. If you’re talking about your existing leadership team and you’re kind of wondering, are they doers or are they, um, equippers one, look at their, look at their history, what have they done, and if you’re still unsure if they’ve got the goods, you’ve just got to start focusing their energy in different ways. You’ve got to start holding them accountable to be meeting with leaders and giving things away and building systems and spending less time doing. One of the things that we say around here as great leaders coach for success and impact is that necessary endings and so just start to lay out what you’re measuring them against differently. One of the real basic ones I do with churches that are making this change is they have to actually every six weeks they kind of report what, what the six most important things are going to be.
Amy Anderson: And one of those six is always a name of a couple of people that have high potential volunteers who could take on a higher leadership role meeting with them. So those are the behaviors of equippers. They’re getting to know the people in your church. They’re getting to know the staff that they lead, they’ve got an appropriate span of care, but they’re delegating. I’m not just tasks but responsibility and they’ve got their hand on it to some degree, but if you even look at within the institute, the church, the different levels of leaders, you know, the tens, the fifties, the hundreds of thousands, um, you’ve got to make sure you’ve got people on your staff who either are or have the potential to leave at that hundreds or thousands level. I’m not the tens, not, not the fifties. Eventually. Tony, would you add anything to that?
Tony Morgan: Yeah. There are a couple other key multi-site questions. I have one each for Matthew and for Chad and matthew weren’t to start with you. And by the way, don’t you? It’s a, I love the fact both of these churches are multisites, but they going into multi-site had two different end games in mind. And so matthew specifically about your strategy at why, why launch campus that will eventually become a church? Why not just plant a new church?
Chad Moore: Because most plants fail.
Tony Morgan: Yeah.
Chad Moore: There are two reasons. They fail money and leadership. So there’s a bunch of shepherds out there that think their church planters and they’re not,
Chad Moore: and they’re shepherds and their great shepherds and they love people, but they have no clue what it means to go and evangelize and start a church. So they’ll go start a church and they wonder why in two years they still got 20 people because they’re not church planners. They’re not pioneers. There you gotta be. There’s some pioneer people that can plant churches and nuts identifying the right leadership for the right space, and we’ve only learned that because we long ago there’s churches that plant churches because they don’t want that person on their staff anymore. That’s why they planted them in. The church fails and everybody’s. We knew what was going to fail before we planted and I go, I think it’s stupid model. So sorry I couldn’t do something crappy. That was good. You need to coin that one. Chad as staples are crappy sprays.
Chad Moore: It was awesome. I can’t remember the first word, but as I look at it, we said, here, we want these campuses to succeed. How are they going to succeed? Well, finances and leadership and connection to the, the, the sending campus for a period of time allows them to create a financial base and develop who they are. Then they get to develop leaders. They get to be under the care. I’m still a part of the team. There’s one elder board, there’s one finance team. You know what’s happened with our campuses now. They don’t want to become church plants. They love being a part of the system. They love the larger than themselves. They’re a part of something bigger now and God is starting to grow this new system and I didn’t say you had to be a plan, so you’re going to be a campus and if God leads, it will be a plant.
Chad Moore: They don’t want to be in the leader. Jay’s going, I get to teach, I get to lead, I get to have a capital campaign and I don’t have to deal with the elder board. I don’t have to deal with all the financial side. To the degree matthew does. I love this and so that’s why we did it and we just have to believe that it’s a great way to start churches and if they want to be a plant, they have a better foundation after five years to start than we did, which just by giving them $50,000 in a senior pastor to go plant and say, good luck.
Tony Morgan: That’s good. Yeah. Actually, uh, I know Chad’s church is doing some great things around supporting church plants after they plant, which is, I think unique and, and w and you and I are going to have to do a whole conversation at some point as you get down the road because I think there’s something to what your church is doing there. But I’m going to ask you a different question. Um, the specific question has to do with when do we know when to watch? So, uh, this church, a large church, 7,000 at their main location, a thousand at a second site, 1600 at a third site. But they’re asking the question, when do we know when it’s time to consider a next campus? How do you, how does your team consider that?
Chad Moore: Yeah, we, we think basically we think through his momentum. I think amy said this earlier, and, and don’t miss the brilliance of it, the best reason to start a campus. It’s because you have to, it’s, it’s the idea that, um, you’ve got so much momentum at a location or at a couple of locations sothat the spill over effect, um, and, and really the building just can’t hold. You don’t want to do 18 services in one location, you know, maybe maybe you do four or five or whatever, whatever the lid is, you just have to do another, another campus. Um, the thing that matthew and I definitely have in common, even though we have different models is a, is a commitment to effectiveness and you’re going to replicate who you are. So if you’re just killing it at a certain campus or in a certain location, of course you want to replicate that.
Chad Moore: Um, if you’re struggling, you don’t want to replicate the struggle. Um, so I think it’s just thinking through and obviously with, with prayer and discernment, but Tony, I would think through momentum, um, are already at a place to where, um, you know, this is, this is gonna work and through our ears, I mean we’re at a point to where, you know, we, we tend to think I’m going to launch a campus isn’t going to be a thousand people out of the gate. Well that’s a momentum thought and so there has to be a lot of momentum don’t going into it, but you also have to predict the future a little bit because you got to start preparing for that campus a couple of years out. So you’re just gauging momentum all the time.
Tony Morgan: Thanks again for joining us for this week’s conversation about getting churches unstuck. Before we go, we’d like to share another way. You can take your next steps and leadership. The Unstuck Group offers leadership coaching network for pastors a few times each year. And this spring we have four new groups starting. You can join me in a couple others from our team for a seven month coaching experience on leading and unstuck church, or leading an unstuck multisite church. The deadline, it’s quickly approaching. It’s on April eleventh, so you can learn more about these opportunities at the unstuck group Dot com slash coaching. And lastly, we hope you’ll tune in again to listen to the podcast, so subscribe on Itunes, Google play, or wherever you like to listen to your podcasts.