October 16, 2019 Tony Morgan

Insider-itis, Narcissism & Other Reasons Churches Don’t Reach More People – Episode 115 | The Unstuck Church Podcast

An Interview with Jeff Henderson on What It Means to Be FOR Your Community

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Our world today often feels hyper critical and cynical, and many times outsiders have a similar view of our churches. We’re seen more through the lens of what we’re against than what we’re for, but what if we could change the narrative so our churches were known by what we’re for in our communities?

Today on the podcast, I get to talk with Jeff Henderson, lead pastor at Gwinnett Church and author of the book Know What You’re FOR: A Growth Strategy for Work, An Even Better Strategy for Life to explore how churches can engage their communities in a more effective way.

In this episode you will…

  • Discover how to be known in your community by what your church is FOR rather than what it’s against.
  • Find out how to solve the front door challenge of getting new people to attend your church.
  • Create a balance between communicating what’s happening inside the four walls of the organization and how much you are talking about the community.
  • Learn how to become a raving fan of your customers.
A business is no longer what it tells customers. A business is what customers tell other customers it is. #unstuckchurch [episode 115]Click to Tweet The customer is eventually treated like the team is treated. #unstuckchurch [episode 115]Click To Tweet

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Sean: 00:02 Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast, where each week we’re exploring what it means to be an unstuck church. Our world today often feels hyper critical and cynical, and many times outsiders have a similar view of our churches. We’re seeing more through the lens of what we’re against than what we’re for, but what if we could change the narrative so our churches were known by what we’re for in our communities? Today on the podcast, Tony sits down with Jeff Henderson, lead pastor at Gwinnett church and author of the book For to explore how churches can engage their communities in a more effective way. Make sure before you listen to subscribe to get the show notes in your inbox. Every week you’re going to get one email with the leader conversation guide, all the bonus resources to support the content. You’ll also get access to the archive with all of our podcast resources from past episodes.

Sean: 00:51 Sign up by going to the unstuck group.com/podcast. Before we get to today’s conversation, I’m curious if you know how the Unstuck Group got its name. It came from a common conversation that Tony had with pastors around the country that said they just felt stuck. Trying to move things forward and seeing little progress will leave you feeling that way and year after year will repeat in the same way unless you do something different. So what are you going to do differently in 2020? Here’s an option. Enroll in the Leading an Unstuck Church Online course. This is the last chance to get in this year. We’re closing enrollment on October 31st and here’s why we think you should give this a look. Our data says that your church is facing some or all of the 12 core issues this course equips you to lead through. You can take lessons at your own pace with coaching from our team. As you learn, you can facilitate these exercises with your leaders and begin to implement next steps at your church. We’ve heard a lot of pastors say they feel stuck. We believe it doesn’t have to be that way. Check it out at theunstuckgroup.com/course and enroll by October 31st. Now let’s get into today’s episode with Tony and Jeff Henderson.

Tony: 02:06 All right, well I am really looking forward to today’s conversation. Jeff Henderson, is good friend of mine, we’ve known each other for several years. He’s currently the lead pastor at Gwinnett church here in Alpharetta. Actually two churches now, isn’t it? Alpharetta and Hamilton Mill here in the Atlanta area and in his previous life he worked in the marketplace for a couple of companies you might be aware of, number one, the Atlanta Braves in their marketing and advertising area and Chick-Fil-A too. And it’s actually the result of the combination of those experiences that we get to have this conversation today because Jeff has just released a new book. It’s called “Know What You’re For. And in fact, Jeff, because of that experience both in business and the church before we dive into the specifics of the book, I’d just like your perspective on what the church can learn from business and what can business learn from the church?

Jeff: 03:04 Well, I think you’re an expert in that, Tony. I mean you’ve been able to bridge those two worlds. But one of the things I’ve discovered is that there are a lot more similarities in those worlds than there are differences. When I left the business world to go into the church world, I discovered there are people there and they’ve got the same issues over here as they did over there. And so there’s a lot more similarities. But here’s what I think is so exciting, especially from a business perspective. I think it’s interesting how we use terminology for these two worlds. There’s the “for profit” world and then there’s the “not for profit” world as if these people are “not for profit” as if it’s some evil thing.

Jeff: 03:41 And I understand that’s for tax reasons and I get all that. Over here, these folks are for profit. And over here, these folks are for purpose. So purpose and profit have to be opposed. You can’t have them together. And I think that’s old school thinking. And I think where the future, and this is so exciting to me, is going in both worlds, in both the business world and the nonprofit world is I think you’ve got to have both. And when a business understands that you can bake purpose into the profit, the more purchase and profits you have, the more purpose you have. But the same is true for church world and nonprofit world. You may not say profit, but you need more money coming in then you need more going out.

Jeff: 04:30 If you’re going to stay in existence, and you know this in your life now, but also as a pastor for a lot of nonprofits, their future vision outpaced their current resources. And that’s the tension they felt every single day. That’s actually a good tension because it should be the case. But if you’re going to shrink the gap, then you’re going to have to grow. You’re going to have to grow resources and impact. And so what I discovered is that healthy organizations on either side, grow, and we just have to figure out principles in ways and processes to understand, how to help, how do we help organizations grow? And so for me, I was able to work with Chick-Fil-A one of the fastest growing companies in the country and they will do over $10 billion in sales this year. They’ve had 50 years of consecutive same store sales growth.

Jeff: 05:22 They have funded their new store growth through cash, no investors and they are debt free. On the other side, I’ve spent the last 16 years working at one of the largest, if not the largest church in America. It’s rapidly growing, and I began to ask the question, I bet there’s some similarities here. There are. And so I just decided one day instead of just keeping all these, you know, things I’ve learned from these organizations to myself, let me share them with a few people. So that’s what it’s all about.

Tony: 05:58 And that actually leads me to the first question related to this book. It’s kind of just the why question. And first of all, thank you. You gave my wife, Emily and myself the opportunity to come to your book launch event the other night, which was quite fun because it wasn’t just us. There were lots of other friends and family there, including your mom. And your mom, she’s so wonderful. But before we get into some specifics about the book, I’d like to hear the why behind the book. Would you be willing to share a little bit?

Jeff: 06:29 Well, it really began eight years ago when we launched Gwinnett church, as you know, this is when you and I met, when I was at Buckhead church. Our friendship started 16 years ago, something like that. So, when we started, we asked the question, what do we want to be known for and what are we known for? And we weren’t known for anything because we weren’t even in existence. Right. But we said, you know, when it comes to the church, many people, not all, but many people are more familiar with what the church is against rather than what the church is for. And when I heard that, I thought, Oh my goodness that is so true. And what do we want to be known for? And that’s when we said, well, we want to be known for reaching Gwinnett’s kids.

Jeff: 07:07 Gwinnett is a county in North Atlanta and it’s a really important county. It will be the largest county in the state of Georgia in about five years. It’s one of the most diverse, if not the most diverse county in Georgia. So the opportunity to impact people in this county is remarkable. So that’s when we started launching For Gwinnett and that’s what we wanted to be known for that some of the story I shared with you and the launch party the other night, but what I discovered is that, a few years later, I saw other churches doing this and I got a coffee mug in the mail that said For Winnipeg. And then I started getting tee shirts in the mail from other churches and I thought, oh my goodness, this is starting to catch on. And it really just happened organically. There was no strategy behind this. And then my friend Carrie Niewholf was in Pine Bluff, and they were doing For Pine Bluff.

Jeff: 07:56 And he just called me and said, hey, you’re not being a good steward of this idea because they’re doing this, but they don’t know what they’re doing because they’re just trying to pick it up on social media. And so he really challenged me to write a book. But as I wrote a book, I thought, you know, I think this is bigger than just church. I think there are principles here for business leaders because Tony, and this is one of the many gazillion things you do well, I know you’re in the church space, but you help leaders understand that you don’t have to just be a church person to impact the world for the kingdom. And I saw many people ask me, when did I decide to go into full time ministry? And I’m like, well I was already in full time ministry and so, for me I wanted to write something that could help. So I’ve been working on this thing for eight years and it really just helped grow our church exponentially and we launched our second campus. But it really came down to this idea of what do you want to be known for? [Inaudible]

Tony: 08:58 In fact, Jeff, I mean Gwinnett church really has become a movement and I love now your book is going to give some practical advice on what it is to be for a community, not just for churches. The book is really written both for nonprofits and for businesses, which I really appreciate. For the church leaders that are listening today though, could you just give some specific examples of what you did at Gwinnett church to really be for your community?

Jeff: 09:27 Well, one of the first things we wanted to make sure that this wasn’t just a marketing slogan. How are we really genuinely for our community? And so we had to understand the context and I’ll give you a couple of examples. One of which is, and you live in Atlanta, in the state of Georgia, of the 10 largest high schools in the state of Georgia, eight are in our county, Gwinnett County, eight. So we’ve got to pay attention to that. So we have to really show our high schools that we are genuinely, authentically for them. And we do that in a lot of different ways. We support schools, we personally support them on social media, we promote them, we talk more about high schools than we talk about ourselves on Twitter. And so that’s a really important distinction. The other thing that we wanted to do is to look to see which of the nonprofits in Gwinnett County are just crushing it.

Jeff: 10:17 And we wanted to raise money and just give it all away to them. And so there was that. But then the other thing that we wanted to do, we believe one of the best things that we do for our community is to create what we do on Sundays throughout the week. And, we wanted to create some language and I think, to do this, you’re going to have to be able to give the volunteers in your church language to invite people to church. And that’s what For Gwinnett did. We gave everybody t-shirts and we just sent them into the communities with For Gwinnett and people asked questions about what is that? We see that all over the place For Gwinnett. And in fact, we have these little car magnets that say For Gwinnett and we say, pay it backwards.

Jeff: 10:59 Go through the drive through. You don’t do this all the time. But occasionally. In fact, I got up two Sundays ago and said, all right, this week is a pay it backwards week. I want you tomorrow to go through the drive through. You just pay it backwards for somebody and just leave a touchpoint. And those conversations and touchpoints really began to grow our church because practically speaking, vision and vision casting, it’s kind of like a bucket of water. The more words in the bucket of what you want to be known for as a church organization, the more the words will fall out. So we wanted to give a few words because many people are more familiar with what the church is against. We want to be known for what we’re for. We’re for you. Come check us out. Those kinds of statements really practically speaking, grew our church.

Jeff: 11:40 But then it’s incumbent upon us to make sure that we are really focused on our community and trying to help them. And one of the things we try to do is really try to highlight local businesses. That’s what happened the other night when you were at the launch party, you may not have known this, but there are a lot of local business leaders that we’ve promoted on Instagram. They don’t go to our church, but I invited them there that night to just say, hey, you’re a part of our community. And one of them is actually in the book that we just support. I think just of it as we should be the Gwinnett Convention Bureau and just keep giving.

Tony: 12:14 Yeah, that’s right.

Jeff: 12:17 In the early days of our church, I told our team and volunteers someday if we closed down and decided to close the doors of our church and sell the property, my hope is that the community would rise up and protest for us to stay open. We may not believe what you believe, but you’re such a value add to the community that if you closed down we suffer. That should be one of our goals everyday when we come to work.

Tony: 12:42 So Jeff related to this, in recent weeks on our podcast, we’ve been talking a lot about helping churches deal with their front door challenge. And I think what you have to say related to word of mouth marketing could really be helpful here. By the way, before I ask you the specific question we’re still seeing, and I’m guessing this won’t be a surprise to you, that 80 to 90% of first time guests that show up to a church come because a friend invited them. So it wasn’t billboards or advertising in the community or even advertising on social media. It was really word of mouth. And so we’re seeing that word of mouth is still very powerful, but you say there’s actually a secret to it that every organization can harness. So, what’s that secret?

Jeff: 13:32 The secret is what you referenced, positive word of mouth advertising. And here’s why, and this is true for churches, but let’s pick on businesses. A business is no longer what it tells customers. A business is what customers tell other customers it is. That’s the game. And you can spend all the money you want on paid advertising, but a customer can under undermine that with one experience. And this is why I have such huge respect for business leaders. You’ve gotta be on every single day. And this is why I think it’s so important for people to invite and bring a guest because they can interpret the experience for them and help them take the next step. So it’s not as much as just inviting them to church. It’s making sure that they know what the next step is. So there’s not just this front door and then they just walk out the back door.

Jeff: 14:21 But the goal really should be to create a Salesforce for free, if you will, with people. It’s much like when we talked about this the other night, when a business asks, how did you hear about us? And they list several options, television, radio, billboard and social media, and then the other box. And the other box is always the one that gets checked the most. Well, what is that? That’s when somebody said, you should go to that restaurant. You should go to that movie. You should go to that church. In the early days of our church, if you’d say, Hey, you can have the coolest website in the world or 50 people who will passionately invite people to church, I will take those 50 people every single day because we can figure out the website.

Jeff: 15:08 But because the website is what we say about ourselves, those 50 people genuinely and authentically are talking about us. But here’s the thing in church world today, and this is true in business world, we’re not leveraging the social media potential of the people that attend our churches. We are not fully leveraging the social media reach of all the people that attend our church multiplied by all the people that they can potentially reach. We’re not close to being there yet, but we have to. What we have to do is we have to equip the vision carriers to do that. And so I think we’ve got to do a better job at our church. And I think the church at large equipping the vision carriers to help give the church a different image. The church has a not so great image right now in the world. And that’s unfortunate. And I think we can change that though.

Tony: 16:04 So I think this is going to be an extension of that thought, in your book you wrote if a business was a person, many businesses would be considered narcissists and narcissism is bad for business. So my first question for you, because we’re talking to church leaders, do you also believe that’s true for some churches? And if so, can you give some examples of what or how we might change our messaging so that our community doesn’t view us as a narcissist?

Jeff: 16:37 Yeah. And that sounds kind of like i’m really angry. I’m not, I wasn’t angry when I wrote it.

Tony: 16:42 Yeah.

Jeff: 16:47 I’m not saying that we are narcissists. I’m saying that the business or organization is displaying narcissistic tendency. So let me explain that.

Jeff: 17:05 Let me give you a couple of examples, Tony, to go through. If you look at your Instagram page for any business or church or nonprofit and count the last 10 posts my hunch is that 9 out of the last 10 are about what’s happening inside the four walls of the organization. Now we still need to do that. We still need to talk about the new sermon series or this thing that’s happening. All I’m saying is there needs to be a better balance. One of the things we try to do at Gwinnett church, and we don’t always get this right, is for every third or fourth post, we want it to be about something in the community. We actually have a different Twitter strategy than we do for Instagram, but the point is is that we want to shift the spotlight away from us and more toward the community and start talking about them because it’s not about us.

Jeff: 17:49 It’s about them and there’s been a strategy for years now, which I still believe in, businesses have been challenged to create raving fans. If you create raving fans, they will support your business. And I still think that’s true, but I think we’ve got to go to a further level now and I think thriving organizations of the future will be less concerned about creating raving fans and more concerned about becoming a raving fan of the customer. Because when you say raving fans, in essence what you’re saying is we’re the most important, we’re the center of this epicenter here. And that’s not where this game is going. I think customers are too savvy for that now. And you have to genuinely and authentically let them know that you notice them and that you care for them. And so one of the strategies we have at our church is something called grow small.

Jeff: 18:34 I want to grow a small church. What I mean by that is I want to grow. I want more people to come, but when they come, I want them not to feel like it’s large. I want them to feel like they’re noticed. And that’s why I think a lot of organizations don’t do social media. They do digital media and they’re not practicing social media. I think this is a fundamental mistake that a lot of businesses make in housing social media in the advertising department, and they’re treating it as advertising. It’s not advertising. It should be removed out of the marketing department and put into a whole separate category called customer engagement. But for me, one of the things that we do to practically talk about that is when you leave your platform and go onto the platform of the people that are following your church, your business, your organization and comment and talk with them there.

Jeff: 19:25 And when you do that, it’s like, Oh my goodness. They noticed to me. And the pushback I get from a lot of larger organizations is we don’t have time to do that for everybody. And that’s when I bring in our mutual friend Andy Stanley who said, do for one what you wish you could do for everyone. And if you do for that one what you wish you could do for everyone, they’ll start telling other people about it. So I think we’ve fallen prey in the church world to an old school marketing tendency that says whoever shouts the loudest and is the most obnoxious and talks most about themselves is the winner. That used to work in the madman ad agency days. I don’t think that’s gonna work anymore. And so those are the narcissistic tendencies that we have to avoid.

Tony: 20:13 Yeah. By the way, I love the Mad Men. I absolutely loved it. I mean, I guess I can recommend it. I mean, I’m a Christian. I think I can recommend it. I don’t believe in the morality behind some of the characters, but it was a fun show. Alright. So one of the big topics we talk about a lot on the podcast is the fact that many churches become insider focused over time. And in fact, I think you labeled this, what’d you call it? Insider itis in your book. Here’s my sense Jeff, is that one of the reasons why we become insider focused is about why we can’t be for the community is because we don’t even know the community. We don’t know the people that we’re trying to connect with. And as a result of that, our eyes are constantly on what’s happening inside our churches. So can you suggest some first steps for us to begin to know the community that we want to be for?

Jeff: 21:13 Well, you’re the expert at this, but I would say one of the things I love to do is to make sure that our meetings aren’t always at the church building. Like if you have a church building, it makes sense to, that’s where you go to work and that’s where we have our meetings and that’s not what I want to do. Sure you have to meet there sometimes, but I like going into the community and actually going to businesses and say, Hey, we’re going to have our leadership team meeting here if that’s okay. But before we get started, could you come over here and tell us how the business is going? And they look at me like, why? And I said, because I love kids. We’re for you. And we believe one of the things that makes a thriving community healthy is thriving businesses.

Jeff: 21:51 So if you’re not thriving, you can’t hire people here. You can’t pay taxes to keep the government going and we don’t want your business to fail. And so it’s just so fun for me. And then with our team, it just helps the rest of our conversation go in a different direction because the goal of any organization, if we’re not careful, and this is just natural, this naturally begins to happen. The goal of any organization is self preservation. And we don’t do things that way and why are we doing it? But when you see real life examples in real life people, it just reminds you of who are we trying to reach? And it helps me because the people that don’t go to our church never complain about our church. It’s only the people that go to our church.

Jeff: 22:43 Another thing I’ve learned from Andy is you need to pay attention to what people are complaining about and are they complaining about the right things. And let me just assure your listeners complaining about the volume of how loud the music is, is not a right thing to be complaining about. It’s just not okay. Complaining about, hey, I brought a first time guest and they didn’t have a good experience and let me tell you why because of this and this. That’s a complaint to listen to. And I would say back to my previous question, if they came to me and said they didn’t have a good experience because of the volume of music, that actually is one to listen to. So for me it is just getting out in the community and seeing the real people and, and it just reminds me of why I got into this from the very, very beginning.

Jeff: 23:32 And so the other thing is I encourage our team, who is it that you are praying for? Inviting to church? Because in church world, if we’re not careful, the only people that we know are Christians. People that don’t watch Madman. But if you get people that watch Madmen who aren’t Christians to come to church, it just helps keep your heart fresh. And so for me there, I ask our team to, what I call it, “own a restaurant.” What that means is when you go into this restaurant on a frequent basis, you’re like Norm from Cheers. Everybody knows you. The wait staff knows you, the owner knows you and you are just bringing yourself in and you’re getting to know the staff. And for me, that’s Mellow Mushroom in Swanee, Georgia in Buckhead, a little bit higher establishment. You and I went there for lunch a couple times, Brick Tops in Buckhead. But for me, I just wanted to get to know the staff and pray for them. And so I know the owner at Mellow Mushroom and I’m inviting her to church. She’s been a longtime friend. She hasn’t come yet, but it just helps me think of Jill as we’re creating what we do on Sundays. What would Jill think if she actually does call me and say, hey, my family’s coming this week.

Tony: 24:51 Yeah, so let’s not lose this. The conversation today is on being for communities whether we’re a business, a nonprofit, a church. But what you just said may be the most important thing for the leaders that are listening. If you want your church to take on this aspect of the mission that God’s called you to, you really have to model being for your neighbors and for your coworkers. You need to be modeling this for your church to pick this principle up as well. All right. So Jeff, I believe in everything that you’re talking about and mainly because I’ve seen not only Gwinnett church, but several other churches that have picked up this strategy of being for their community and now their church, they’re just reaching more people, having the opportunity to share the gospel with more people, seeing more lives change than ever before.

Tony: 25:44 However, I can already hear some of the church leaders in the background as an example. You wrote, doing good is good for business. But for some church leaders I can already hear them saying, well that’s good for business, but that’s not the mission of the church. The church’s mission is not social justice. It’s not doing good in the community. So I wanna just hear your take on that. Because I believe it is. I think it’s critical actually to us spreading the gospel, but there’s, in the past been this tension within the church between, is it about the mission of spreading the gospel or is the church just trying to do good in the community? They’re all about social justice. It’s really not connected to our gospel mission. What’s your reaction to that?

Jeff: 26:35 I think it’s a yes. I don’t think Tony, it’s either or. I think we have to do both. I think if you pick one and do the other, I don’t think that you’re fully bringing the full potential of what Jesus said when he said you are like the light of the world. And I want to introduce people to the light of the world, but I also want to take the light of the world and go into restaurants and businesses and have people. I want people to go, okay, why are you doing this? I love pleasantly surprising people with the gospel of generosity. So when we’ve gone into businesses and said, Hey, can we feature your business on Instagram? And they ask, was this a trick question? Of course you can, but do you want us to put flyers of your church to promote your church?

Jeff: 27:21 Nope. I mean, we’d love for you to come to our church. It’d be great. But the reason we’re doing this is because we want to help you and we’re for you. And I think that kind of generosity is being part of being the light of the world. But when they come to our church, we want them to understand who Jesus is. We want them to understand the gospel. We just don’t want to be nice people, but that we should be nice people. But in fact, sometimes I feel like the reason the gospel is not being as effective right now is that we’re just not very nice people. So I feel like you have to do both, but I want to proactively take the light into our community. But ultimately, it’s not just being for the community. This is all based on, for God so loved the world that he sent his only son. I mean, this is John 3:16. That’s what for Gwinnett is really all about. It’s based in John 3:16 and John 3:17. And so that’s what we want to be about. So I think you’ve got to do both.

Tony: 28:24 Yeah. And by the way, one of my favorite verses from the new Testament talking about the purpose of the church is Titus 3:14. And this is Paul’s letter to Titus and he said our people must learn to do good by meeting the urgent need of others. And so, I mean, as our churches are living out the gospel, it’s critical that we’re for the communities around us. Jeff, any final words of encouragement that you’d like to offer to pastors who are listening to today’s episode?

Jeff: 28:53 I think Tony, I would really, really want to reiterate is that I know not every church has a staff. Because you, might have a listener today that they are the staff. All right. So I understand that. But when I say staff, it could be, you know, elder board or core volunteers or launch team. However that looks for you. Let’s just go with it for a sec. Whoever is in your circle, to be for your community, you have to be for your team because let’s use it from a business standpoint for a second. The customer is eventually treated like the team is treated. And unfortunately the church doesn’t have a great reputation in terms of being a great place to work. And I think one of the reasons a lot of churches struggle is because of the team culture is dysfunctional and is not as healthy.

Jeff: 29:40 It’s one of the great things that you help churches get unstuck with. But we’ve got to have a great work culture. And I mean, I grew up as a preacher’s kid here and people just bad mouthed my dad and the first thought I had about my dad or first thought rather, I had about my, about a church as a kid. The first, all that I can remember, Tony is hearing my dad and my mom talk about that brother so and so doesn’t like this. And deacon so-and-so doesn’t like this. The first thought I had about the local church was why do these people hate my dad? So if you’re an elder board, if you’re a volunteer, first of all, be really supportive of your pastor. Secondly, if you’re a pastor or leader, we’ve got to do our very, best to treat our staff with the honor and dignity that they deserve, because ultimately that’s what they’re going to serve up in the community. And that’s one of the concerns I’ve had about multisite over the years. Multi-sites are wonderful. But if you have a dysfunctional work culture, you’re spreading that dysfunction all around the community, and that’s not a good thing. So I would just say final thing is if you want to be for your community, that’s awesome, but it really starts with being for the team.

Tony: 30:55 All right, Jeff. Well, we’re going to try to lead by example here. I know I’ve written books before, so I know when you write a book, you don’t get stacks of free books to hand out to people. Wouldn’t that be nice? So what we’re going to do is, because we’re for pastors, for church leaders, we’re, going to try to get the word out a little bit. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to buy 50 books and we’re going to give one to the first 50 people that respond to this. And by the way, if you’re listening in the car right now, I would recommend you pull over the side of the road and go to this website, the unstuckgroup.com/for book, theunstuckgroup.com/for book. And that will take your name and address. And if you’re one of the first 50 to respond, we’re going to send you a copy.

Tony: 31:46 Now they’re going to go fast. So if you’re not one of the first 50, I really do encourage you to pick up this book. You’re going to read it and you’re going to be encouraged because it’s going to help give you a new vision for how your church can be for the community and how you can be for your team. And then you’re also going to realize, man, the folks in our churches that are leading in the marketplace, nonprofits, wherever they’re leading, they’re going to be blessed by hearing the principles that Jeff has to share in the book. And this is going to be a great resource for you to share with your congregation as well. So Jeff, thanks for joining us today. We really appreciate the vision that you’re helping us give church leaders for how our churches can be impacting.

Jeff: 32:30 Thanks, first of all, for your generosity for sending 50 books out. It’s amazing and thanks for your friendship over the years. It’s awesome and I’m just a big fan of what you’re doing. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Sean: 32:41 Thanks for joining us on this week’s podcast. If you like what you’re hearing on the podcast, help us get the content out by subscribing on your favorite podcasting platform, giving us a review and telling your friends about the show. Don’t forget this week to check out the Leading Unstuck Church online course at theunstuckgroup.com/course. Remember, enrollment for the year closes on October 31st. Next week, we’re back with another brand new episode. Until then, have a great week.

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Tony Morgan

Tony is the Founder and Lead Strategist of The Unstuck Group. Started in 2009, The Unstuck Group has served 500 churches throughout the United States and several countries around the world. Previously, Tony served on the senior leadership teams of three rapidly growing churches including NewSpring Church in South Carolina. He has five published books including, The Unstuck Church, and, with Amy Anderson, he hosts The Unstuck Church Podcast which has thousands of listeners each month.

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